I was SA'ed by a boyfriend, who then decided to tell all our friends "his side of the story" before I could, even though I wasn't going to tell a soul... I was basically told by our whole group of friends to forgive and forget because it would be awkward for everyone going forward. Even my dad said "well you seem okay now" when i told him. Seeing men like yourselves talk about how bad it is and feeling affected by this movie, is a therapy session to me, so thank you 💙
Or the ever popular refrains: Come on, it could have been worse. You're going to make everything uncomfortable for everyone? Just get over it and move on. Stop being such a drama queen. (I'm so very sorry this happened to you. Unfortunately, those are not your friends and it sucks to be in pain and realize you are also alone. It is a chance to find supportive friends as you move through it. )
It's 100x worse coming from another woman. After I was SA'ed by my boyfriend at the time, my mom just looked at me and said, "Are you sure it wasn't just bad sex?" Yeah mom I'm pretty sure screaming my head off in pain (Nobody came to investigate BTW and this happened in an apartment building with parked cars outside) and telling him no aren't "just bad sex". The cherry on top is, she's been SA'd in the past, too.
The difference between Alfred Molina's begging forgiveness and Bo Burnham's *demanding* forgiveness is heart-wrenching. Molina's character has been crippled with guilt, because he knows the harm he's done; harm that can never be undone. Burnham's character was "caught" and as a young doctor, all he's thinking about is his career and his reputation. In his mind, he's a "nice guy", a "promising young man", if you will-probably even considers himself a feminist-and he can't let a little lapse in judgement ruin his life. But he showed no indication of actual remorse, the way Molina's character did.
The biggest difference is truly understanding and acknowledging the harm that they caused even though neither of them "meant to". One was "just doing his job" and the other "made a mistake in college". While it's true that neither people are evil sadists who set out to hurt others, you don't have to be one in order to cause irreversible damage. People get so hung up on their intention to be a "nice guy" or "good person", that they cannot acknowledge that they have failed. You'll notice that Cassie forgives the lawyer. Sometimes that's all victims really want. A genuine acknowledgment and understanding of the pain their perpetrators actions have caused, regardless of what their intent was.
When he demanded she forgive him, my thought was "you never said sorry or even showed remorse or repentance. You were lying about it until she showed you the proof."
@Luboman411 - and more than that, the “nice guy” likes to think he’s clean because he was just a passive observer of the rape incident. All this time, he’s believed, “Hey, I didn’t rape the girl, so I have nothing to feel guilty about!” Through his character, ALL of us are being called out for our passive participation in rape culture. With regard to race, it is insufficient to merely be “not a racist”; for real racial justice to happen, we must be actively ANTI-racist-that is, to look inward at our own prejudices and actions (no need to feel guilty though; just be open to acknowledging our mistakes and work to correct them), and fight against systems of racial oppression (laws, policies, culture). Bringing this back to the original topic, it’s not sufficient to be “not sexist”, but to actively be ANTI-misogyny and rape culture. Bo Burnham’s character assumed that he was the “good guy”, because he was “not a sexist”, and had never raped anyone himself. But he didn’t intervene when he witnessed a rape actually happening right in front of him, nor did he report it when he could have. His silence was tacit approval.
couple things i love: - i love how from the start, bo's character still gives hints that he isn't all he's cracked up to be, just in his dialogue. he doesn't take a clear hint to stay away and respect boundaries (spitting in his coffee, declining his date), lightly guilts her into a friendship with him (where he'll be pining for her the entire time), offhandedly disrespects her (asks what shes doing working at a coffee shop), commands her to go on a date with him ("Have lunch with me with weekend.") and at one point even calls her a "miserable asshole" and says "Let me finish you stupid bitch" when she asks him to stop talking (in a scene that's painted affectionately!) his love for her has Always been tainted by the sexism he has been raised with. - the scene with cassie forgiving the lawyer painting her in an almost godlike reverence? her light blue dress as she lays her hand on the back of a man kneeling at her feet, begging her for forgiveness- it's like mary passing down judgement on a sinner. that's one of the more magical (going with the revenge fantasy surrealism) scenes to me, how he can finally sleep at the grace of this woman. i really hope to see you do perfect blue in the future!
@Susanna Iris Astarte Probably. He strikes me more as the kind of bad person who watches things happen and doesn't stop them, then the kind who does them.
In addition to, "Don't be that guy" I'd like to say "Don't allow the people in your life to be that guy". It's hard to stand up to your friends and speak out when something feels wrong, but it is so important. If you hear a friend make a "joke" or comment that feels disrespectful or sleazy, please say something.
I watch their channel a lot and I’d believe if he clarified to say “don’t be any man in this film.” Sometimes we don’t always say what we mean clearly. Just that is the intention of the movie, they were all wrong. The perpetrators, the bystanders, the brush-under-the-rug-ers, the victim blamers. That made up of nearly all the characters save for her and the three parents we see. “That guy” could be almost any guy or gal in this movie.
I ended up cutting someone out of my life for somewhat similar behavior. Any time at night he'd text "I wish I could see what you were wearing" or "I wish I could see what you looked like". If I was in bed I'd send him a pic of the darkness or if I was in the bathroom, it was always a closeup of a towel. He'd always respond with "no what's under the towel". And when we we're gaming together it would occasionally go to "what would you do if I kissed you?" My usual was "I'd smack you really hard". He responded with "that's a bit harsh but I was joking". Bet he started flaking on me cause I never let him closer to me. Dude went to military and when he came back I thought he might've changed but nope. So I kindly grilled into him and told him to F off out of my life. It's been years and now I can analyze the red flags that at the time didn't look like much in my teen years. Ew
@Ariane Winter that's why I said communication is important. In my country people often are more in need of humor 'cause life can be very cruel sometimes. Humor has it's place and importance and making people be afraid of unintentionally stepping on a landmine will in the long run have more bad consequences than positives ones. It starts with comedy and goes on with being afraid of saying something bad, you even see it today when people are afraid to say anything because they don't trust anyone being ready to look over the comment and actually understand the intention behind the statement.
@Fogg Frog kinda yes kinda no, a joke is different then a serious statement, but that does not mean it is OK. It still desensitise and can make people feel very unsafe as well as give people the impression you would be OK with worse
As a woman it's always incredibly healing and brings me hope to see male role models just acknowledging this. The level of relief I feel is tangible. It makes the world feel a little safer and more hopeful for all of us.
Can we talk about how Cassie's parents never say to her "Hey maybe you should go to a therapist or a grief counselor?" They expect her to just move on and let it go, and I feel like that is such a realistic boomer parent response to trauma.
Her parents have to live the rest of their lives, now, knowing that they gave their daughter a suitcase for her birthday... shortly before she was murdered.
To be fair to the boomers generation, their parents weren't there for them at all, and taught them that trauma is just a part of life that you just need to deal with. The builder generation, after all, lived through two world wars, a pandemic and a horrendous depression, so they had all had trauma in their past and zero systems in place to help them deal with it. Even the boomers, though they lived through a time of intense social change, didn't have those kind of systems in place. And not all of the therapy during the 19th century was healthy. Think of the controversy of the satanic panic and false recovered memories because immortal or immature therapists used a combination of drugs, hypnosis and suggestions to convince their clients that traumas other than what they were really dealing with had actually happened. Psychology and counseling practices have come a long way, but there were some messed up ideas and practices that therapist during the boomers era participated in, so let's curb our outrage that they are suspicious about that vocation. Context is important. When we know better, we do better.
Sadly that's very common in the US, and probably elsewhere. Everyone is just supposed to move on, bury it, pretend it never happened... and then they acted shocked when the person commits suicide.
It’s not that she’s triggered by him asking her if she wants to come up to his apartment, it’s that he waited until they were on the front steps to tell her where they were; it’s underhanded that he withheld that information and then pretended to be surprised poorly. It was just another “nice guy” move. He didn’t force himself on her, but he still withheld information and then propositioned her with the added pressures of being there, sunk cost fallacy and fear of being perceived as “rude”.
@sillyxostar I agree with all of what you said in regards to consent and it’s why I didn’t want to do anything and refused. The next day I had to reassure her that she wasn’t “rapey” and at no point did I really feel threatened by her (I’m a 6’3 at 230 lbs. She’s 5’6 at 160 lbs). I spent more time trying to get her to relax. We did go out more and hung out more. Eventually we did have sex. But she was EXTREMELY inconsistent about her moods and wants. On one hand she’s blowing up my phone with messages about how she wants to mess around. And on the other, she feels like I was just using her for sex. This was after seeing each other for like 3 weeks. Things didn’t work out because she had a lot of self problems that she didn’t really work on. But my point is that trying to feel for what’s right and what’s wrong early on sucks ass. You have to take into account her opinions/wants and whether you might go to jail vs you coming off as a wuss/ “not being a man.” All while you yourself want to have a good time. Obv I’ll take not getting laid over going to jail. But it sucks when you feel like you have to accept that you choosing to “respect her” will mean that what might have been something will go nowhere.
@jackbrax7808 I know you asked this a couple months ago but I was scrolling comments and saw no one answered you so I figured I'd answer 🤷♀️ I think you were right to not further things with that girl. Intoxicated/under the influence people cannot consent. Even if they are convincing lol (it'd maybe be different if you'd had prior sober relations with her but for starting off, best to play it safe) If when she sobers up and says she wishes you would've tried to, then that sounds like a green light to me! And, she'd probably be delighted and trust you more because you respected her the first time around and showed self control. Enthusiastic consent is the best consent! And always remember, consent can be retracted at any given point, and although it sucks to stop what you're doing in the middle of things, no or stop always means no.. no matter what. Follow that and you're in the clear! 💖 (ETA: Sorry for the kinda essay 😅 I didn't intend to go on like that haha)
I had the same thought. He was walking her to his house without saying. He tricked her. Creepy move. If he wasn't trying to push or coerce he could have given her an out before, like my apartments this way but here is the bus or something. I could even forgive him walking her home cause he could have meant it as a gentleman.
@First Last I wish everything was the clear. I was with a girl at her place and we had talked prior that she didn’t want me to try and kiss her or do anything. Cool. No problem. She and I drink a little (she drank a lot) and she expressed that I should’ve kissed her a couple times. She later wanted to do more then that. I eventually said no and she kept trying until I left. She later regretted it but she said that she wanted everything that was going on and was expecting me to be more “ambitious.” Shit like this makes things hard. Am I being a man by desiring a woman that wants it? Or am I being too forceful?
I took her line “I’m so sorry I didn’t go with her” to mean “I’m sorry I didn’t take my life when she did.” Because that makes everything else she does make sense. She is on a revenge crusade, it it seems clear she didn’t care if it cost her her life because she stopped living when Nina did.
I remember being at a gathering where a guy was insisting that "not all." I told my story to him, then a friend told her story...and so on. There ended up being a group of girls around him talking about our experiences and he did end up getting emotional. It was really wild seeing someone's eyes get opened in real time.
@thousandyard gavri278 I think it is a rather weird take to say "don't make someone uncomfortable" when the thing that makes them uncomfortable is by just telling the truth about their experiences. The point isn't to say "you are wrong, every man is like that.". It is about how the phrase "not all men" is so often used to downplay this huge problem of our society. It is brought up as soon as a woman talks about what happened to her. It is so often used to say "yeah, yeah. That is bad and all. But don't be so dramatic because not everyone is bad! So we don't need to change anything." Or as an automatic defense reaction. "Why are you telling me that? Are you accusing me? Well it is not all men so leave me out of this." If he feels uncomfortable by realizing that people close to him are affected by this, it is a good thing imo. Because it makes him realize that he can't just push it away and ignore it. It could cause him to be more aware of what is happening and be alert when something seems suspicious or wrong. Maybe it will make him speak up. Instead of hiding behind "it is not all men so how should I know if that guy really is a danger right now" You can't change if you don't understand the gravity of a problem. You need to feel uncomfortable to want change.
@kay it really is just this depressing sort of thing that most women are brought up to expect this sort of thing to happen, so we're taught literal survival skills (don't go out alone at night, carry your keys between your knuckles, carry pepper spray, don't leave your friends alone/stay in a group) and yet it always ends up happening anyway, and then we STILL have guys trying to deny how many people it happens to
Is he insisting "not all guys are bad"? Because its true.. and even if all the women in the world tell me an awful experience about a guy, its still true that not every guy is bad. That guy must be so uncomfortable with a bunch of girls telling him how wrong he is. Im not totally on his side because I dont know the details.. he could be telling you passively that he's one of those guys just to lure you in. The og post is a bit unclear. Bottomline is, don't make someone uncomfortable..
@Peter Adams I was referencing the original comment as well. I totally agree, though. The double standards across the board are outrageous. I'm sorry that happened to you; no one should be grabbed like that. It takes a lot of courage to share experiences like this in a public setting, and I appreciate you doing so. I wish that this behaviour would be treated with more seriousness than it is. Harassment is too often downplayed or laughed off, especially when it's women perpetrating it. Women can absolutely be predators, too, and should be called out for it. It's another form of sexism that men can't be victims and women can't be aggressors. It's important to call out harassment and assault for what it is and stop enabling it. No one deserves to feel unsafe. I wish I had a better solution for this, but I don't think there is an easy one out there. Regardless, I hope these final weeks of the year treat you well, and that 2023 is a happy year for you!
@kipandren My response was on the original poster, and yes I had my bad experiences with women. It's the double standards of women that tick me of the most tbh. For example I once had in class a girl making a speech about how she did not like that a 'certain guy' grabbed her ass and went in full details in how unpleasent it was and why he should stop doing it. She did not want to name him, but the whole class knew who he was. After class I stepped outside with that guy since I was curious about his response but then I got grabbed in my ass and when I turned arround it was "that girl" that had just given "that speech" who had done it... I could not believe this actually happend, but yes this double standard would hit me more often later in live.
The statistic for how many women have been sexually assaulted means that everyone knows at least one. If you don't know one it's because she isn't comfortable sharing that with you. 400,000 rape kits go untested primarily because police don't investigate. 1 at least out of every 5 women experience sexual assault, the majority occurring during women's college age years. Thank you for covering a difficult subject with such courtesy. Dr. Marks was a superb guest and I hope she will be back again.
@Morghena Some feminists recognize men have issues. While others (idk the percentage or total numbers) but some protest when men try to gather and talk about their issues. They protest about male privilege when men try to gather and talk about issues around self deletion etc. Let us talk about our issues and we will feel less overwhelmed when the constant stream of news stories with only female victims or lgbt victims are discussed.
@Eliana bruh same goes for women then if you want EQUALITY then stop blasting your issues too. Lets see how long you last when every time you are hurt emotionally anf physically youre just told to "Man up" and suffer alone all the time.
My friend HATES this movie for her dying at the end, says it's a cheap shot and for some shock factor and edginess. I think it's lost on her that her that the point is these men are so protected that she had to die to get them any consequences. That everyone can be a victim, nobody levels up to "girl boss" and is suddenly immune from men ruining her life like her friend. The power these men have over her doesn't go away, she just gained power over him in return.
I disagree that Cassie was too far gone, or that she wished she had died when Nina had; the latter especially doesn’t make sense, as there would’ve been no justice whatsoever if they both died at the same time. I don’t think her death was the only thing that would’ve made sense, but I can see why it happened. At the same time, I’m very glad there wasn’t a bloodbath ending; it would not have given Cassie the relief she really needed, or given Al Any time to face up to what he did wrong, or live as anything but a pillar of the community to everyone who knew him. He needs to face the same kind of reality that Molina’s character did, and that can only happen by facing the lives he cost.
I think the thing that is unrealistic to me is not her being killed, rather it is the fact the groom and co. are arrested. The realistic version is that they will never face any real, legal consequences for their actions.
@TsukiKatana "That's a man's way, more masculine and aggressive" You do realize that that phrase itself is sexist, right? It's like saying that women can only take revenge if they sacrifice themselves since they are incapable of doing the "man's way" (In other words, the "correct way" (sarcasm)) And this criticism is not directed at you, but at the creators... Personally, I liked the ending.
I really admired the decision to cast actors known primarily for their comedic work, such as Bo Burnham, Chris Lowell, Adam Brody or Christopher Mintz-Plasse, as entitled "Nice Guys" who aren't as benign as they initially appear. We WANT to like them, until they do shady things, which highlights the film's message of not judging a book by its cover.
@Anitra Moore yea nice doesnt mean good. frankly mean people can be good underneath it all. also some people say oh you should have caught it sooner but some people hide who they truly are! it takes time to get to know people. even with friends, coworkers etc
@ChristineTheHippie same w/ police and the military they're generally trustworthy and respectable as they should be but theyre definitely capable of bad like anyone else
As a survivor, that movie was everything I wanted. My agressor went on to have a life, a new girlfriend, a job. I went on to have six years of therapy and continuous trauma. And I do use my voice now to uplift other survivors and to keep men accountable, and I will fight to make the little difference I can, but utlimately, it's men's responsibility to change the way they act around women. YPW really hit that nail over and over, and I loved every second of it even if I was crying the whole time 😅
I, a brown woman from India, have been following your channel for a while and I LOVE Alan’s take on most things, but especially this film. Just one thing, another reason as to why Cassie is all pastel-y and girl-y is because a) Guys often tend to go for younger women, and b) the candy-ish aesthetic is the exact opposite of the themes and plot of the film.
@Luboman411 I love those movies as well! The ideas of femininity, both aesthetic and performative, are so very interesting in all three of these films. But especially this one given that it's more of a "female rage" sorta one.
@Ilona Speaking from personal experience, that is so very true. Especially if one has experienced SA at a younger age, it's almost both catching up on lost time and being comfortable enough to experience things you couldn't before.
Well, I took the girly, pastel colors and candy-ish aesthetics to be a rebellion against the prevailing films of this genre--the "tough women who got raped and are now avenging bad-asses" movies. In those movies, there is a strong male aesthetic and male point of view--dark colors, shadows, lots of weapons, lots of fights, lots of tough posturing from the strong, avenging women. But here, we get completely into the female point of view--no fights, just getting these guys to understand how awful they are. A damaged woman who couldn't move beyond her trauma. A woman who was ultimately killed by misogyny and horrific male violence. I thought it was a very interesting way to make this film distinctly female, the use of pastels and candy-ish aesthetics almost everywhere. It reminded me of "Mean Girls" and "Bridesmaids," two heavily female movies that I LOVE.
A common coping mechanism to deal with trauma when we're not adults yet by the time we're assaulted is also to surround ourselves and enjoy all things cute. Kawaii, cute, adorable, pastel colours, all of that stuff brings us joy because we had to grow up too early.
I took her interaction with him outside his apartment not as a backslide in her trauma but as a red flag in his behavior. It sort of felt like suddenly he pulled a move that all the men she finds at clubs pull. Oops look we're at my house!
@Christy Murphy that's not something just men do, women do this, too. The difference is that men don't have the awareness about sex as we women have and tend to not see it as a big deal. It doesn't necessarily make them bad people for using this tactics but it's neither a good thing to do. To use such tactics to increase the possibility of things going your way is something we've to teach everyone not to misuse
Agreed, and there's a giant red flag physically in the scene. If you rewatch the film, there's something bright red in every "red flag" scene. Amazing filmmaking!
This episode made me want to watch this movie, so I did. I had avoided it because I'm a survivor of sexual violence, so I was worried that it would be triggering. It actually turned out not to be for me. In fact, it's been empowering in a way I wouldn't have expected. I loved and appreciated that the movie never explicitly showed what happened to Nina. So many times in media, traumatic incidents are played up to the point of feeling exploitive. I appreciated that we, the viewers, never invaded Nina's privacy by watching her worst moment. I also loved that the movie very blatantly states what behaviors are unacceptable and why. I also got a strong message to survivors - you need to find a way to heal and let go of what happened to you, otherwise it will be the death of you. It's hard, but letting go and living your best, healthiest, and happiest life is the best revenge against your attacker. They don't get to take any more of your life. They don't get to cause any more pain.
“Didn’t make an impact, huh?” That line was a lot. There was disappointment, disgust and a sense that this is what she expected (like when you expect a bad outcome and are disappointed when you’re right)
Oh I didn't read her fashion as childish but as feminine. Part of the strength of her character is that she takes action but not by dressing like a man, or acting like a man. Gotta say idk if I appreciate her style being read as childish. Equating feminine with childish is part of why women don't get taken seriously. She clearly didn't move on and all but I can't agree with the "regression" interpretation.
They said her style is feminine and childish, but I think the word they're looking for is "girlish." It's not that femininity is automatically childish, but that Cassie dresses in ways that many little girls dress, hence the hair ribbons and pastels. By contrast, when she's wears a blazer and skirt to the club, she's still feminine, it’s just adult femininity.
I think it may show she is stuck and also is using it as bait/trap. Although she could just use it when out at the bars and have different clothes and hairstyle at home and other times. It would actually make more sense as a vigilant. So I think her clothes do suggest a more childlike attitude/ mindset and stuck at a certain age basically.
While I agree that it can be pastel in the sense of assuming femininity. In the scene, they do make her drink out of a cardboard juice box while the mom tells her to stop being a child... I though this was quite telling of the intentions of the filmmaker.
@Cerise is a Color Cassie wasn't traumatized when she was a child. She was traumatized when she was in med school, in her mid-20s. She was a fully grown adult. She wasn't "emotionally stuck in the age she was at the traumatic event" because she wasn't a small girl when all this happened to her. I think her need for "junior's clothing" was a subconscious way to venerate her dead friend, Nina, who had been her dearest childhood friend. Her dropping out of med school, living with her parents, working at a coffee shop were indirect ways of reliving her childhood past with Nina. It was her way of grieving. She needed a good therapist to move beyond all of this, to get her life on track again.
21:12 I get the point of what's being said, but I read somewhere that the decision to portray Cassie like this was conscious. She's embracing femininity and being herself, in the sense that often society views makeup, accessories etc as vain indulgence. The entire film has a colourful pallette to show the idea that this is also a part of female experience. Granted, not every woman is like that, but some are and they shouldn't be shamed for liking it.
“Rom com in the middle of all this trauma threw me off” that’s life as a woman. Some guys are these guys and some guys are so so freaking cute and honest and endearing BUT it’s hard to trust the actually good guys because there’s so many not actually good guy experiences.
@Kristi Bunny Hahah I'm bi too! I also had a previous girlfriend with whom I was like... do I really like women at all? Anyway it was weird and I did go back to dating guys for a hot moment but then everything turned out better than expected. Thank you and I hope you've also found the right one this time ♥ It's a blessing and a curse that bi/pan people have so many options lmao
@Nemamka 👏🏼 (it’s a high five lol) yeah I’m bi, a gal was one of my “trauma in the middle of nice” and ran me off from dating gals. Anyway found a great guy for now and if he doesn’t work out then single for life lol no I’d prolly give dating gals another go (not getting married more than 3 times though lol calling it now) anyway glad you’re happy now fam 🏳️🌈
@Kristi Bunny ah well I saw many agreements regarding this in some other similar comment's repleis so... anyway yeah, you're right, I found my soulmate but it's actually another woman so 😅 guess I hacked the system
@Nemamka exactly. Sorry you get it (honestly sorta happy more haven’t maybe there’s less of us than I thought). Hang in there though there are some actually good ones!
I love so many of the subtleties of the movie! (Spoilers ahead!) 1. The casting of the likable actors with a background in comedy for most of the male roles, showing that no one is "safe" to be around. 2. Nina being called Nina. Because in Spanish that name more or less means "(little) girl" and she could have been any of us. 3. Cassandra in mythology is the prophet who is never believed. 4. The pen color in the notebook where she marks her night's out depends on how the guy's acted and what lesson she taught them. 5. The director asked a family member in law enforcement how long it would take to suffocate someone and they said 2.5 minutes, which is why that's roughly the amount of time the camera holds on that specific scene. I'm sure there's more, but those were the things I remembered.
Cassandra is not only a prophet, but she's cursed when she continuously resists Apollo's sexual advances. So that name is very appropriate for the protagonist of this movie.
Being raped is the single worst thing I can imagine happening to me, not just because of the assault itself but because of how society treats women who have been raped. And because it's so common in the US, especially in the military and in college, we as women live in such a state that every decision we make is influenced by trying to avoid rape. MEN DON'T CARE WHEN WOMEN SAY NO. MEN NEED TO TELL OTHER MEN NO.
@RedFox689 Any man that would be suspicious of you or denigrate you because of past trauma is trash. You deserve so much better than that. I hate how men make us hate ourselves instead of focusing our anger on them where it belongs. I wish we could all be born into communities of women - to be free to grow and thrive without fear. Female bodies aren't a curse, they are amazing and powerful. It's our culture and the way it treats female bodies that is wrong. I never reported or talked to anyone. It's taken decades for me to come to terms and start healing. If I'd had someone supportive to talk to it wouldn't have taken so long. I believe you can get to a place where you'll find some peace within yourself and I wish you well.
@RedFox689 I am so sorry this happened to you. You are not alone in these terrible experiences - but it feels different for everybody and it feels like you are alone. Therapy didn't help me AT ALL with my SA-experience (for many people therapy does help, but i had a terrible therapist considering this specific topic), but it did help me with other aspects and gave me the ability to work on my self worth and have more control and agency over my own life. I used to hate my body, too and wished I was a man. Many years later and through 2 bouts of therapy, I do not wish this anymore. I also realized how horrible male culture can be. Again, I am sorry you went through this.
Yup, this is exactly how I live my life, yet it still happened to me. My best friend of 5 years... in my sleep. I went to the police... twice. Nothing happened. Every decision was weighed by that fear, I missed out on a lot of probably great opportunities to make and be with friends, but the risk is just too high. No matter how cautious, it still happened. Now here I am, alone, no friends. This has rotted me from the inside out. I have broken down so far all my relationships crumble because SA is the only thing my brain can talk about anymore. Cant keep a boyfriend because they see me as dirty, sl*tty, a lair, like I am going to lie and go to the police about them just because I explain what happened to me. I don't want to have sex with someone without explaining I have vaginismus(a medical condition as a result of abuse), so we have to be careful, or they will damage me and trigger a PTSD episode. I just say if they don't intend to hurt me, then there is nothing to fear, yet... I constantly have to tell them I won't lie to the police. They see the scars on my legs (self abuse) and think I'm a crazy b*tch... So far, every guy I have dated has some form of this bias. All I ask is to be reassured I'm not being used as a hole, not to be treated as a hole, yet it keeps happening, and I am just an agoraphobic internet hermit now, too afraid to even interact with anyone. I can't help but hate this female body I was cursed with, not only for how it's been used against my will, but the fact I have a severe parasite phobia on top of being able to get pregnant in a world that sees me as breeding stock. I would rather jump if I got pregnant, yet they deny me sterilization over and over and over again. There is nothing to love about this body of mine. I wish I was born a man...
I love how this film turned the “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” around and showed just how much trauma can ruin someone’s life. I hate how many films and series make it seem like only way for women to become strong is to face abuse that hardens them. I can’t even describe how grimly satisfying I find this films portrayal of what trauma can do to you and how rarely the people responsible for it face any consequences whatsoever. Unfortunately in real life lot of the time women only get justice for the violence they have suffered after they die and this story doesn’t shy away from it.
Uhm, this is an example of an unhealthy person dealing with grief, not a refutation of strength through adversity. The solution the film offers makes no one stronger and is as misguided as any over the top sermon guilting people into good behavior
I love the scene where she goes to visit the lawyer. It made me look at the main character in a whole other light. Like, before that scene, she just seemed like she was out for revenge, and that was it. After that scene, I realized that she didn't really want revenge, exactly. She wanted the people involved in her friend's death to recognize what they did, acknowledge that they hurt someone, and actually apologize for not stopping it when they had the chance. Made me look back at the things she did to everyone else that was involved, and think about how, yeah, she gave them all a chance to recognize the situation and apologize for it. It was only after they all doubled down on their choices, denied any wrongdoing, or blamed the victim, that she acted out her revenge against them.
This movie is powerful in so many ways. I went into it knowing every single twist, but was still devastated when each of them happened. I have two issues with this analysis. 1. Cassie is stuck in a childlike state after her best friend's rape and death. But I don't think the outwardly appearance has to signify that. There is nothing wrong with girly interests and pastel colors. The makes chose that aesthetic not to portray her stunted development, but to communicate that this work has been made by women (the writer/director and the lead, also produced by Margot Robbie among others) for women and girls. 2. I like the idea that Al could have improved since raping Nina, but I don't think he actually did. There isn't much evidence one way or the other since Al isn't in much of the movie. But when Cassie confronts him, he doesn't really express remorse in any form. Also after neutralizing Cassie, there is no need for him to kill her. There is a reason why Fennel chose to make the sequence about two and half minutes long. Two actually - One famously because that is the average time it takes to strangle a person according to her policeman father in law. Two, he could have stopped at any point of time after knocking her out. He killed her. This is not a gun shot heat of the moment thing. He strangled her for two and half minutes, just like he raped Nina for presumably longer than that. This man is despicable. The horror is that he isn't an outlier psycho. He is an every person, a pretty respected one at that.
Well said! The point about Al choosing to continue for the whole two and a half minutes is so important. I think the earlier bit where he claimed to be loyal to his fiancee showed one side of him, but the other side was definitely still there, as we see later on. Again, I love how this film doesn't paint anyone as black and white, even the main baddie himself is not one dimensional and has a "nice guy" side.
I remember when a woman started killing the bus drivers who raped women in Juarez. As an SA abuse survivor I did not choose revenge but I can't lie. Part of me was happy that someone chose revenge.
At times, I could see myself taking the same path as Cassie. I have never been assaulted but I hate that it happens to others and think the consequences should be much harsher for perpetrators.
@SinHurr I get your point, and I don't advocate vigilante justice, but at the same time I almost wonder if we already push a totally self-centered narrative of healing yourself and moving on. How many women are pressured into dropping everything and quietly taking themselves to therapy while their attackers go totally unchallenged to attack again?
@Cat Lily There's also a box of self-healing in a nearby isle I guess but few people think to go look there. Look it's not my best metaphor but I'm trying. Grocery stores are hard.
I was SA'ed by a good friend of mine a few years ago and that was when i learned that predators are Not like they're potrayed in the movies, but often just your normal guy next door. The film potrays this in a great way and i really enjoyed your take on it! Yes, this is the movie every 14 year old dude should watch.
14 is too late to hear this message. I was first SAed at 12 years old, the perpetrators were the same age. It starts so much younger than anyone wants to admit. I loved this film, it was like therapy for me, and your comments about one party being allowed to move on while the other is stuck in the past were spot on. Keep doing what you’re doing.
@J Sharp please don't compare a viewing experience to actual SA/Rape. it's very degrading to someone who's actually gone through it, in a society that always finds ways to minimize or justify it. Watching a movie IS NOT the same, triggering? Sure absolutely, possibly traumatic? Maybe, but school shootings get reported on the news all the time and people don't censure kids from that nearly as much. But to say Watching a fictionalized version of SA is the SAME as actually being SA'd is overstepping the bounds and indicates to me that you are very fortunate to have probably NOT have been in a situation like that in your life (if you have, my deepest empathy's, but my point is still, that your initial comment is insensitive and desensitizing by saying a person Watching movie and an actual victim experience the same trauma)Lots of other comments here have pointed out that it starts much younger than adults are willing to admit. My mom had me enrolled in self defense classes at 5. Still got SA'd at 19, 21 and 22.
I agree about 14 being too late. I would say maybe have multiple conversations starting young that get more detailed but still age appropriate. I wouldn’t have children watch this film before 14 though since it might be wayyy too much and be counterproductive. I was 5, 7, 12, 17-19, 21 and I was the same age as them until my late teens when I started dating older people possibly in an attempt to be respected but I wasn’t. At 7 it was a group of boys my age and I estimate that at least 5 were involved but nothing happened to them even though a teaching assistant for my year helped afterwards, she knew what happened but I guess she said nothing
In almost every interview about the film, Fennell and Mulligan kept reiterating that it was primarily a film about grief, not the standard rape revenge film people kept expecting. While the trailer do make it seem like her bar work was a bigger element of the film than it was, some people let their expectations get ahead of them, and then were upset when the movie didn't meet those expectations. Honestly, if the film followed the standard 'Girl gets raped, then turns into a empowered badass', I would've HATED it. Rape is not empowering and this film shows that.
@Rowan Hoyt Kill Bill immediately comes to mind. Enough starring Jennifer Lopez. Lots of 1970s horror movies, which aren’t my jam so I’m not the one to ask about that. Girl with the dragon tattoo has some satisfying revenge scenes. That’s all I can think of off the top of my head. I’m sure a bunch of really obvious ones will come to me in the next 48 hours.
quick question where are the movies with that 'standard' cliche? (genuinely asking). As a survivor myself, personally I would love to see someone going full John Wick on rapists
Despite the similar dialogue between the scene with the boyfriend and the lawyer, we get very different framing that lays out the subtext: the lawyer is asking, begging to be forgiven. He's legitimately sorry for his part in this. He still remembers. The boyfriend doesn't remember and we get a very different reaction from him. He TELLS her to forgive him, trys to manipulate her into forgiving him. Read the lawyer in her lap, vs. the boyfriend standing over her, even as he's leaned back.
The blocking and camera angles are genius and tell a story itself. Very interesting to see even these clips of it. The strange framing is unsettling, makes us feel like vouyers on these lives, and shows who has the power but then it can easily shift. So well done.
This movie to me as a woman was incredible. When the government and the system fails women over and over again we eventually have to take it in our own hands
I honestly thought she was going to way worse. She didn’t do anything wrong. I wished she had done more but I still appreciated the movie. I’ve always said if one in 5 women are raped in their lifetime than how many men are rapists? But we never hear that statistic, do we?
@Scooter Girl what are we supposed to do? no one will help us. watch the movie. Believe Me: The Abduction of Lisa McVey its on youtube, it shows that just catching the guys help victims alot, and when people are willing to put their own life at risk for the chance at saving others, thats when you know that they have been failed too many times
The fact that people like Andrew tate and the fresh and fit podcast are reaching prepubescent boys is terrifying really hope schools show this to help break down rape culture
@Ethan Adade I mean this in the nicest way possible - it seems like you don’t have a great sense of what misogyny entails. It’s not surprising, a lot of these messages are not new, but if you really think about it, they are absolutely not okay. There are some good analysis videos on the whole situation on KZclip, I would highly recommend you check them out.
I don’t think he or fresh and fit are trying to perpetuate rape culture even though I’m not a huge fan of fresh and fit. I understand some of the things Andrew Tate says SOUNDS misogynistic but I don’t think that’s the case.
I love that Cassie uses phycological tactics rather than brute force because it is more impactful in the long run and is more relatable to me and so many other women
I don’t know if I’m alone on this but it would be interesting to see if other people feel the same way. Although I’m sure what you guys said is 100% correct, I viewed the scene of ‘accidentally’ walking by his house as a way to show subtle male dominance. In all honesty, I think it blind sided her and took the control out of her hands and she felt that. From a woman’s point of view, you’re going for a nice walk, enjoying yourself when unknowingly he’s just directed you to his house. As a woman it makes you feel out of control and like you’re no longer on a level playing field. I think a lot of men don’t realise just how intimidating that kind of situation can be or how much pressure it puts on a woman to go inside even if they had the best of intentions. Instead of mutually agreeing to go back to a house there’s an uneven power play and it ends up with the woman feeling like they should go in even if they may not want to. And to add to that, if they say no they feel bad even though it’s fine and important to set boundaries. Maybe I’m being over sensitive but I know I wouldn’t like that sprung on me and I know I would never direct someone to my house without them knowing, feels shady and gives off weird vibes. Ps love your channel guys!! Even when discussing very tough topics you both handle them with such care and you both always seem so wholesome and are forever bestie goals
An ex did this to me. He said wanted to take me me this cute cafe he knew. After we left, it was late and I thought he was walking me back to the station, as I didn’t know the neighborhood. But suddenly we were in front of his house. We had only just started seeing each other at the time, but I was really attracted to him and wanted to keep seeing him, so I went in even though I wasn’t quite ready for ~that step~ of the relationship. He never asked me if I was comfortable going back to his place, or if I even wanted to. He just took me there. Looking back I see how inappropriate that was, especially after seeing this movie.
At the very least, he was hoodwinking her. When out walking with someone, male or female, we usually go oh, this way is my place, unless you are super caught up in a conversation but then you don't say it the way he did.
@Luboman411 there's a subconscious conviction in many men that women don't really like sex, there's no such thing as enthusiastic consent, and manipulation is the best way to obtain sex. Dismantling rape culture is twofold: demonstrating what No means but also what Yes looks like so men can recognize it. Once a (good) man sees what comfortable, safe, enthusiastic consent from a woman looks like, that's what he should want every time. The trouble is so many men doubt that's even a thing.
Fun Fact: Emerald Fennell asked her father in law, who is a retired police officer, how long it takes to smother someone to death, and he told her two and a half minutes. That's precisely how long the smothering scene between Cassie and Al lasts for.
This was weirdly one of my favourite parts of the film, simply because I appreciated the realism. It has always bothered me how films portray strangulation/smothering as something that can happen almost accidentally in how fast it is, because in reality it is an extremely intimate and intense way to take a life. It's a method you have to keep choosing to continue doing the entire time you're doing it.
@ToxicGinger If I recall it correctly, in Torn Curtain, Alfred Hitchcock portrayed a long, exhausting murder scene that goes on and on. When questioned about that, he said that "in real life, murder is usually neither clean nor simple, and sometimes we have to be reminded of that."
@Tina Beana regardless, there is a good chance that resus measures taken that prioritise respiratory function can revive a smothered patient for the first 6 minutes. He made a choice not to attempt to revive her.
Hi guys! Love the video. But re: the notion that her sundresses, hair ribbons and general manner of dress were a manifestation of her having regressed into a mentality considered childish (if only by others in the film). i actually disagree, my perception was that it had more to do with cassie owning and embodying her femininity without it somehow being at odds with her fierce, justice-crusading mentality. sometimes we’re taught to abandon or shrink away from overt femininity, either because it doesnt align with the masculine-leaning “cool girl,” or because ultra feminine personas are typically villainized in film, it’s as though women need to counteract their femininity with masculine traits to make it more palatable to those around them. but in cassie’s case, being fucking furious doesn’t mean her presentation has to change to anything less feminine. sometimes in movies they use traditionally masculine behavior to telegraph that a women is REALLY angry, or ready for battle/confrontation, like showing women putting on war paint, huffing and puffing, or acting like men. but the movie subverts this by having cassie’s war paint be ribbons and sundresses, because it doesnt detract from, or even visually counteract, her fury.
You triggered a memory that was suppressed for more than a decade. I love rock music, but at the same time I enjoy bright colours and cute clothes. When I wanted to go in a bright yellow outfit to my very first rock concert my boyfriend told me "jockingly" that he won't go with me because I want fit in the crowd in my clothes and everyone would be aggressive towards us. He pointed out that I would look like a fraud who doesn't give a shit about the music and only their because of her boyfriend. On one hand I was pissed at this rhetoric that I had to hide a part of my personality if I wanted to be taken seriously,.on the other hand - I bought it in and continued believing in this narrative for quite some time.
I softly disagree with the conclusion that Cassie's appearance is solely visualized regression. IMO her painted nails are one of the MOST important attributes of the film. [SPOILERS:] From the start there is shot after shot where her hand is held next her face, fingers splayed, intentionally showcasing the distinctive nail polish. At the end her corpse is, visually, reduced to the image of a lifeless sex doll, with the cartoonish, red-lipstick, 'O' shaped mouth & everything. But when her body is disposed of the ONLY part of her body the viewer is allowed to see is her hand with her distinctive nail polish. It immediately forces the viewer to recall those preceding shots of her face with her hand next to it, reversing her objectification by forcing the viewer to recall her, not as inanimate, or as only a body, but as a personality, as a Person. I thght abt that nail polish for /weeks/ after seeing this movie, it's so genius and haunting.
I also agree with you and I found it funny that it was the cineast to comment on that and not the therapist or the shrink. IMO the pastel colours and the feminine dresses was a way to showcast Cassie as still a beautiful female, without the sexual component. She wanted to still feel pretty without taking the risk of being objectified. Although I can see how a couple of midwesterners didn't get that, since american children are sexuallized from a very young age and it's even legal to marry children in many of those states.
When he gets confronted, instead of saying "I'm sorry," or "that was wrong, I should have done something" he says "you have to forgive me." She says no because he expresses no guilt. He doesn't take responsibility. He doesn't attempt to make things right. He just demands to be forgiven.
One thing I noticed about the men in this movie is that they all believe they're victims despite the fact that none of them have been in a victim's position. When Cassie starts messing with the first guy, he starts backing away from her and gets visibly nervous as if he's being attacked. Ryan feels victimized for witnessing Nina's assault and defends himself and others by saying "we were kids" which is usually something that someone says when their innocence was taken from them, as if innocence was taken from him by watching the assault happen. And then of course the idea of an accusation being "guy's worst nightmare," as if he's been framed rather than held accountable. Even the lawyer, who feels remorseful for his actions, asks Cassie if she's going to hurt him and begs her to help him, as if he didn't benefit from the assault case. The second they are called out on their behavior, they panic and assume this perspective of "the circumstances were beyond my control."
@Julie Tardos Despite the forgiveness, I think Cassie ultimately hurt the lawyer more by not following through with the hit. He gets to live in his guilt.
I was sad about the ending, but as Alan said, it was a "right" choice. It's unrealistic she would come out alive after being surrounded by men who had raped before or just are all stronger than her. I liked the title of "Promising Young Woman" cause society always forget about her promise, her future, shadowed by the Promising Young Man
The while time she was in the bedroom I was thinking Cassie you better sedate him... No why didnt you sedate him! Its awful but most men have the upper hand on women by default and it unfortunately does make sense that in the end she would have to be a martyr to get the job done.
@Paula Stiles she did not plan on dying, but she did plan for it if you get what I mean. She tried to punish him, but was aware it most likely would not end well so she had a back up plan utilising that fact.
@Robin Chestek the thing is, the movie is about grief, more then it is about vengance either way and while sexual crimes often get brushed away, murder with clear proof is something the police has to go after
Consent is such an important thing to teach boys. I don’t believe it’s a concept that should be taught until their adolescence, but much earlier. I feel it becomes a more complex thing to discuss more in depth when they’re adolescence, but that mindset needs to be instilled early when they’re malleable and opened to common courtesy and how to treat others. Of course, it can be broad themes when they’re little and more contextualized and at depth when they’re reaching puberty. Emerald has crafted an important film that young men need to watch, as well as older to bring these things that have been deeply embedded in our culture and society to teach how not to treat women, as humans, not objects.
This is my new favorite episode. Watching Promising Young Woman felt like I was watching myself get the revenge I feel towards the teenage boy who molested me when I was 5 years old, and the man who raped me when I was 25 years old. When I was a child I told my parents I was molested, and who did it, my parents told their friends, and yet absolutely nothing was done. They even let me be alone with this teenager, let me spend multiple nights alone with him. When I was raped at 25 I filed a police report, sat in a car with a detective while he listened to me ask this rapist if we had any sexual contact because I was so drunk I couldn’t remember. Went to the hospital for a rape test. There wasn’t enough evidence. Nothing happened to this man either. I did all the right things, within my capacity, to right the situation and hold them accountable. So watching this film is cathartic, and I definitely seriously consider “Would it be worth it, to physically harm these men now? Or ruin their lives?” The answer is alway no, it’s not realistic, and it’s wrong…but it is still really, really, really difficult to think “that would be wrong.”
This movie made an impact on me so hard that I cried of fear afterwards. I was enchanted by Bo Burnham's character (as it was written to be) and the shock of discovering that he was there and didn't do anything made me fear every single man on earth. As they said in the beggining of the video: one thing is to know things and one thing is to feel things, and this movie made me feel things. On a side note, the fact that they repeat the boy firends roles in each event was a great decision of the filmakers. There is the one who commits the crime itself (the r*pist and murderer), the ones that support/help the criminal (all his friends on the stag party) and the one that choose to do nothing (Bo Burnham's character had the chance to tell the police where she was, but chose to do nothing just like he did with Nina).
It's about bloody time a movie line this was made. Secondary trauma can affect so many in ways we cannot even fathom. No means no, full stop. No questions asked, no quarter given.
When I was 16-18 I had an online fling with a guy. I liked him and he liked me, but we lived far away from each other and I didn't want an online relationship. There were points in our fling where I was teatering between giving it a go or not, but I never went full in. One day he told me he had gotten lucky with a girl from a party. I asked for details and he said she initially said no to anal, but went along with it after a bit of convincing. I immediately said that he had no right pushing her to do anything she wasn't comfortable with, but he was convinced he had done nothing wrong. After that day I made up my mind to never give him a shot. Women are not there for a man's pleasure. No is an answer and you should accept it even if you don't want to.
Another detail in this movie is that everyone who had a hand in what happened to Nina keeps excusing what they did by saying "we were kids", but they were in their first or second year of med school, so they would have been 22-24 at the time this happened. Definitely old enough to know better.
@Tina Perez I agree. I was more making a comment on how they're trying to excuse it by saying they were kids who didn't know what they were doing. But I agree, kids at any age should know it's wrong. There's a case I learned of where a group of girls attacked, assaulted, and murdered another girl because 2 of them didn't like her. The other 2 in the group knew it was wrong, but they didn't say anything and let it happen. Shanda (the victim) was younger than the girls who attacked her and smaller. They could have stopped at any time and didn't. It's disgusting. The movie reminds me of that case a lot.
Dr Marks was right on w that- so glad she was part of this conversation. Felt like she kept them in perspective, reminding them of the hard truth of being a woman. That it's not just "Cassie has issues" but that there's a problem w the society
But here's something else - HOW is THAT okay if done as kids anyway?! I mean who's going around saying "oh little Johnny or Suzie gang raped and or murdered the neighbor kid - but what can you do - that's just kids will be kids!" And... "boys will be boys"?! As if this is shoplifting a pack of gum from the grocery store checkout aisle when you're 5 (or older, but you get my point). THAT'S something "kids do" (and not all kids but some kids and also, that shouldn't be excused away either and should be properly addressed and corrected).
@Tiana Nesbitt You can be tried as as adult when your 18 and sometimes even younger than that. Also you only have to be 17 to join the military and 18 if you don't want a guardians permission. So your logic is off.
Also in the scene with Nina’s mom and she apologizes for not being with her that night she blames herself for a part in her best friends death. There are so many layers to her it’s insanely well done
I like how Alan was like I’m gonna sit down and watch this with all my boys when they’re old enough CUZ THAT IS EXACTLY EXACTLY WHAT I SAID TOO after watching the movie for the first time 👏👏👏
Remember all my fellow men: there is a difference between a "nice guy" and a good man. Because the good man is the one who sees the nice guy try to cut the drunk girl from the herd at the nightclub, gets them to back off, and calls over a waitress to and provides cab fair (if you have money...20 bucks for a cab feels alot better than getting a 20 dollar beer in a crappy nightclub in any event).
And then doesn't go online to tout what a nice guy they are, or complain "but I didn't even get a thank you kiss!" I've seen that on social media 🙄. Do it because it's the right thing to do, not to expect a favor in return or the clout of telling others about your good deeds.
This entire film had me so entranced I didn’t cry at all - though each scene was gut wrenching and terribly painful - until Ryan gets the text message. The moment I heard the ring I just started sobbing, I couldn’t even read what it said, I had to go back and pause it because I was sobbing so much because I knew it was her and then to read it was signed her and Nina… just full on sobbing. But up to that point I was so fixated I couldn’t cry. That’s a great script and performance.
He was one of my best friends. I trusted that guy with my life. He was sweet, funny, charming... He drove me to the hospital when I needed medical attention, he slept in my roommates bed after she moved out and I was in the room. I even had a crush on him my freshmen year of college. And then I found out who he really was... Just like Ryan.
Casting is the most important component in this film. They cast a lot of men known for their comedic work, line Bo Burnham and Chris Lowell, that people generally like as the “Nice Guys.” They cast Allison Brie & Connie Britton, two generally well-liked women, one well-known for comedic work, as the women who end up being part of the problem. Then they cast Alfred Molina as the lawyer. One of Molina’s best known roles is that of a literal supervillain, Doc Ock. They cast Molina, someone people may typically associate with villainy, as the one man who shows any kind of remorse and humanity. Every single casting choice in this film was done with purpose to illustrate that you can never judge a book by its cover.
@Thorn Dela You can see her pull away, and even when his face is in his hands crying, she's cried, says she forgives him, she doesn't shift closer. She stays distant and uncomfortable. Even if she has forgiven him, he remains a threat.
It was also useful to have Molina because even when large men are being sincere, big movements and grabbing hands and knees still make you think "I'm about to be murdered right now. Do I try to run or placate him?"
Yes, the casting was perfectly done to subvert expectations, especially subvert the tropes you see in a lot of shows. One that comes to mind is shows like The Big Bang Theory. Those guys are typically depicted as nerdy, “nice”, harmless guys. Because they’re “harmless” geeks, their actions are played for laughs, but when you really look at some of their actions and comments (especially Howard’s, how he sexually objectifies women, or the others’ actions that are a little more discreetly objectifying/entitled) it’s really not harmless. So it shows these “nice” guys for the actual predators that they can be.
I only realised recently that I was SA’d at least three times as a child, once when I was five and twice at seven; probably more when you count after I hit puberty. I was never properly taught consent (not sure if my exes were or they didn’t care) and it’s only now that I am questioning every experience I ever had and asking myself the questions: “did I want that?”, “did I say yes or did I just not say no?” What makes it worse is that almost all my experiences were were fellow children and that I don’t know how many of my classmates were involved in one of them, I estimate at least five boys my age.
my heart goes out to you. i really hope you are doing well now, i also hope you will acknowledge everything that has happenned to you and you will get help. God bless you
This video was done in the most respectful fashion. I just found out I’m pregnant with a boy and seeing you two talk made me feel a little better that there are good men in this world ♥️
I once had a man literally use the phrase "boys will be boys" as an excuse for his behavior when he tried to get me drunk and have sex with me. I was 18 and he was around 30.
I hyperfixated on this movie SO bad when it came out - I watched it 12 times within 2 weeks once! I’ve watched and read everything online I can find about it and talked about it ad nauseam with my therapist, yet you three have given me new understandings of a few scenes! The vengeance of this movie was so cathartic for me, as so many parts of the plot very closely mirror my own life. Thank you for covering such an intense and ugly topic with all the care, sincerity, and respect it deserves!
Ok, personnal moment: when I was 15, I've been gang raped by guys of my high school, and I started to remember everything 6 years later. It took me a very long and awful time to tell my family, especially my perents, because I was afraid to destroy their world, or that they would stop talking to me, or call me a liar. Fortunatelly, I was wrong. My family is extremely supportive to me. Like many persons in my situation, I had (and still have) ideas of revenge. And it even used to be an obsession. But my memory is damaged, and I don't remember the names and faces of the rapists. My psy proposed me to practise hypnosis, it can be very efficient to unblock some memories, but after a while, I refused. Precisely because I wanted revenge. I imagined myself behind a glass, in jail, talking to my parents and sister, hearing their lives going on, but without me. I imagined their faces and what they would feel when i'd be declared guilty and sent to prison. And this vision made me cry so hard. And also, if I confuse my memories, if I think that a guy was one of the rapists when really, I just mixed it up, and he was innocent...I'd rather let culprits run free than hurting an innocent. That's the decision I took, and I know it was the good one: I have to protect my family, and sometimes, you have to protect them from yourself. But it also have consequences: I know that I will never have justice, though like every human being, I deserve it. I'm gonna live with the idea that these rapists are gonna stay free, and that my fantasies of bloody vengeance will stay a dream. And most of all, I sometimes feel like a coward, even a partner in crime: because I don't wanna remember who they are, maybe they're gonna do it again, to other girls, maybe they already did. And sometimes I feel so bad about it that I can't even look at myself in a mirror, because I sacrificed other girls for my family's sake, and my own mental health. I wish I can be a badass punisher, a vigilante, an avenger, an Arya Stark with her list of despicable victims in the making, walking the streets to make justice, to make sure that they will never rape, hurt, destroy again and to relieve myself from the burden of injustice, but I chose not to be. And it's very, very hard. I''m proud of who and what I am, of the way I walked, and what I chose to become, but I wish I could have succumbed to my own dark side. "The better revenge is a good life", I know it, but once in a while, I need movies like this one to make me believe that others fight for girls like me.
Your first and foremost duty is to yourself. Is going to the police will hurt you more than not going, don't. It's not selfishness - it's self preservation. You're a survivor, and no one in their right mind would expect you to be a hero. I didn't tell my family or the police about my rape. I don't know if that guy ever hurt someone else... He was a player, so it's not impossible. You know the type, entitled "you owe me sex" kinda person. I didn't go to the police because it was a different country and I didn't fully grasp what really happened after I was abroad. I didn't tell my parents because I knew that would mean them obsessing about me going out and retraumatizing me over and over again (I was an adult but still living with them). Was it the right decision? I have no idea. Would me going to the police save anyone? Maybe. But I needed to heal, and I decided that was the right way for me. Sending you virtual hugs ❤️
@Clarisa Thank you, and I feel sorry for you too. I think many people believe that the worst part of a rape is the act itself (and for some victims, it is), but for me and many of the friends that lived the same thing, the worst part is to live with the consequences, and especially the feeling of injustice that will never be fixed. I hope you'll get better!
Im really sorry that happened and you didnt deserve that and I get exactly what you mean bc I went thru (even now still) that thought process of my assaulters and I get so frustrated sometimes with myself bc of it
My first boyfriend witnessed the gang rape of our friend at 15. She passed out drug at a party. He was a huge athlete already…. Later won a football scholarship. He tried to stop the rape, and was beaten up and thrown out of the house, had to hide in the woods, and sneak home. ( The property was way out of town, isolated. Before cell phones). He was unable to have sex. He talked about how sex was horrible for women, it involved damaging them…. He couldn't…. hurt them that way. Secondary trauma can be horrible, men CAN suffer
Yeah, seeing that as a 15-year-old boy and then being beaten up and thrown out sounds hellish. Very traumatizing at such a young age, when you don't even know what sex is. I do wonder what happened to the girl. Did he know her at all? Was she a complete stranger whose identity was totally unknown to him? It sounds like if he was willing to be beaten up trying to stop this at 15 years old, he would've done something about it with the police if he'd simply known who she was. It takes a lot of guts for a 15-year-old boy to stand up like that against relentless, powerful peer pressure from the other guys...
I think I read somewhere that the author of the Girl With The Dragon Tattoo series had a similar experience. Same thing, witnessed a gang rape at a party as a teenager. He either was unable to stop it or he was too afraid and did nothing; I can't remember which. He was so tortured by the experience and racked with guilt that it is supposedly what inspired him to create this novel series. He named the heroine after the girl at the party.
I've seen this movie 3x and every time it rips my heart out of my chest! It's an important film that gets to the core of the truth that society refuses to talk about & I'm extremely grateful for that. A lot of nuance was placed into this film & as difficult as it is to watch its necessary I hope to see more like it in the future
@UnvoicedApollo agreed I think it's because it made people uncomfortable & confront the reality of it all Plus I'm pretty sure the pandemic really ramped up soon after this movie was released
The cutesy hair, clothes, and nails are also a manipulation tactic for her target male demographic. They are more likely to take advantage of someone who appears to be the sweet innocent attractive young woman. So when she is in her batman persona it is like a costume for what she is trying to achieve. It makes her playing dumb or drunk more believable, and makes her turn around into a sober confident woman more shocking to them. The scene where he directed them to his apartment too made my stomach sink. This whole movie is brilliant and the attention to detail is out of this world with just how multilayered everything is.
I think also it’s meant to show how she’s still trapped in the time of her trauma. Because she’s constantly reliving the event, she feels permanently like she’s in her late-teens or early-twenties, an age where you’re still quite childish and naive
When I saw the trailer for this movie, I was so excited to see it because it took a huge issue and made it an important topic. This movie didn’t disappoint because even I initially thought it was going to be a slasher but just the psychological warfare she was playing was even better. I also liked how she flipped the same arguments back at them, especially the Dean’s. Not many people know or understand that women also doesn’t always believe other women and also blame them for their own assault, too. Not just men. My 2 closest female friends and I have been SA’d, and one of which was also told by a female friend that it was her fault for being drunk, which was ironic because she was also known for drinking. She also wasn’t believed or was blamed when she told people. I didn’t tell people until years passed because I was afraid of the very same things the movie draws attention to and what another commenter mentioned. Either I won’t be believed, I’ll be blamed, or I should just forgive him because it makes everyone else uncomfortable.
I like the costume choice for Cassie. She dresses very child like and puts her hair in ribbons and stuff to signify the fact that she’s mentally stunned. She was so traumatised by her friends suicide and the reason why. Like the therapist said she has second hand trauma. She stayed in the mental age of 22-24 even though she was probably 30 something.
Several years ago when I returned to my dorm from a convention,. My dorm room was distoryed. The mattress blow up, the wooden furniture were in peaces and the window was procken. I went to my neighbor to ask what happened. She admitted that she hear screaming and didn't call the police. She didn't call the police because my roommate invited a boy over pass curfew. When I responded with anger, she called RA for help. RA told me that my roommate asked for it. Later I finally found out that my foommate was at the hopital with the police. She never invited the boy over, he broke in from the window. Weeks later the school was sending lawyers at her to talk her into dropping the charges on her abuser. The school only cared about their reputation. We transferred to another school. I learned it's not about being believedble. It's about the convinance of the story
Yeah, not all guys are heores, even the ones who like to pretend so by choosing a "heroic" career... My 22 y-o cousin and her 2 friends got drugged at a night club the other night (someone must have put something in their drinks because they only had one), as they felt dizzy and sick, they stayed together and exited the club to call an ambulance. Not only the ambulance took 20 minutes to get there, but they were insulted by the the first responders for being "irresponsible" and "reckless", saying it was their fault what happended and they shouldn't have been drinking in the first place... They didn't believe it was the result of drugs, they thought the girls were just drunk despite my cousin repeating over and over that they only had one drink. The drug was only confirmed after bloodtests at the hospital, and even then, the girls had to insist to get tested bc the doctors didn't believe them either... So no, not all heroes...
I'm glad they stuck together and demanded their rights etc. I can't tell you how unsurprised I am I that it happened at all or the following events and I cannot tell you nor describe how angry and sick that makes me.
This shit is so insidious. I was in the ambulance with my ex for suicide attempts and the EMT kept lecturing him about sucking it up, demanding he talk about his life so the EMT could point out how much worse others have it and you don't see them complaining or hurting themselves. It was outrageous! I screamed at them
Jesus. What a messed up story. Thank God they were able to not only stick together but not black out AND advocate for themselves. The sure were surrounded by assholes. 😮
We took my daughter to the hospital because she had stomach cramps and could barely stand. My husband was supporting her through the door and the security guard who has ZERO medical training decided she had alcohol poisoning, I never corrected her because it got her seen faster, but people judge what they see and that is all they care to do.
I have watched reviews of this movie but I don’t feel as though I could watch it on its own so I appreciate this. It’s a neccesary movie. I really love that it exists.
I'm so happy you guys covered this. I swear this movie was everywhere for a week and then was wiped off the face of the planet. I've been looking for the name of this for ages. Actually had me sobbing when I first watched it.
As a victim of long lasting childhood sexual abuse, this movie spoke to me on a level that no other film, or even therapist ever has. It made me realize that moving on is a choice that I have to make, and if I leave it up to other people, they’re just gonna keep taking advantage of that pain. You have to be able to stand tall on your own and make the decision that’s best for you, you can’t rely on others to become better people for you, because it’ll never happen. My abuse lasted from age 3-10, I am now 19 years old and still very much affected by my trauma. It’s very disappointing how many people think it’s easy to just “move on” and “get over it” when it comes to things like sexual abuse. In truth, you never really heal from that kind of trauma. The scars fade but they never really heal. You’ll have to live with some aspect of it for the rest of your life, but with time, you can get to a point where you’re living, not just surviving but living; and you’re not being held down by the pain anymore. Thank you for this episode, it really was enlightening and encouraging, rock on you guys 🥰
The last scene when she confronts the guy who SA'd her friend literally gave me chills it was a bittersweet finale but im glad there was a little justice
It's an interesting take that of the groom rejecting her because now he got his sh*t together, I read it as he probably didn't dare because she was sober. All those men immediately lost interest as soon as they saw she was alert and sober. However, your take is also logical and more infuriating. I love/hate this movie.
@snowangelnc And, of course, even being careless with cheap rental items is the attitude of someone who doesn't care about other people. "So what if this has a purpose unconnected to me? It's served its purpose to me and it's out of my life now."
@snowangelnc And like Bo Burnham's character, he didn't changed or got better. He just stopped acting that way. But the ending shows that he is the same POS as ever.
I took it to mean that he'd had his fill, and now that he'd gotten himself a great career and a satisfying relationship and all that, he felt like it was time to toss that behavior aside like a worn out piece of clothing and take what he sees as his rightful place on the moral high ground. He wants to be the good, honorable, perfect gentleman, and that's what he fully intends to be; just as soon as he's finished having his fun. That's another thing about seeing people as objects. He's not seeing what he's doing to these women as being all that different than somebody being careless with cheap rental items and careful with something they want to buy.
One thing I love about this channel is not only do we learn therapy and get more insight into movies but we also get movie recommendations. I have seen a lot of movies just because CinemaTherapy talked about them.
@Cinema Therapy 9:40 and you can see the red flags at the begining when he's still trying to ask her out even when she's already said no. And when she showed him the video, near the end of that scene, he said "and then we both won't be doctors, you fcking failure" which mean he never saw her as his equal and look down on her
Mine is the opposite. I couldn’t watch this movie due to triggers but love the social context and writing, so this channel provides a barrier for me to know more about it and see clips from the movie.
One thing I loved about this movie is the contrast in the casting, the "evil" people here are casted to be actors who are known to play passive and kind roles vs the the "good" people here are usually the actors playing evil roles, i think this strengthens the point that there's not one particular look about a dangerous person and that it could be anyone.
I was SA'ed some 19 years ago by a man. I'm 23 now. It STILL affects how I subconsciously and consciously interact with men. I've had to fight tooth and nail to move on. I've been lucky enough to get therapy so it's gotten better but more people need to understand that assault *stays with you*
I also loved Lavern Cox in this movie as Cassy's work BFF. Cassy posthumously giving Lavern's character her BFF necklace as a metaphor for passing on/shared societal trauma, as a result of misogyny [sort of a kin to generational trauma i think?] I think would make for a great discussion for a CT episode!
I was r-ped by an ex boyfriend 2-3 yrs ago, we were around 15-17 age, I wasn't the best in my mental state during our relationship but I tried my hardest to keep things balanced between us. Its the feeling that I don't want to remember, but at the time same time, I feel like it was just yesterday. I was blaming myself for not seeing the wrong, wishing I could've done something better. It happened at school, got caught by teachers, was set to the office the other day and I saw him crying and said that he's gonna get beat up by his dad if he knew. during that moment, I was confused, in my mind, I was asking to why he's crying, aren't I the one who's supposed to be more afraid..? I was naive, I knew that I said NO, several times until I let out a forced "Yes". Now, Im scared of being in a relationship again. Its just that I wish I could've done something.. Will I ever recover.. Will I ever forgive him..? No. Up until now, I haven't told the truth even to my parent, I just felt that no one would ever believe me if I said anything.
I really hope that you can for the most part recover and hopefully live a good life. You don’t have to forgive him or even forget what happened so don’t ever feel forced to. Just want to say that you should never blame yourself for what happened and also not blame yourself for the lasting damage that was done to you. Sorry if this came out of nowhere but I just wanted to say it just in case it could help you. Even just a little.
What we didn't see at the end, and probably may have happened after Cassie's notes she sent out to the world post mortem and with her attackers future trial: this would hit the media like fire. People would be talking about her, her friend, the attackers, the trial for such a long time. Sometimes we need to find a dialogue to talk about the ugly thing that needs to change.
I loved how someone mentioned somewhere how extremely powerful was casting choice to cast good guys like actors who are either nice in real life or play nice guys on screen to act like villains so we basically are thrown off by how they are a hidden threat, makes you see that it is everywhere and not only "sketchy" guys can be a problem
I also want to add the detail that Cassies dad, probably the nicest man in the movie, and the former lawyer, the only one on her list who doesn't excuse his actions, deeply regrets them and would have accepted every punishment, are both played by two actors who are popular for their villainous/antagonistic roles. Its a nice twist, and it drives the point home that its not written by someone who simply hates men.
@Violet Silver exactly. One analogy I heard was that women need to treat men like guns. You never know which ones are loaded so you treat them all like they are.
@Violet Silver exactly this, many gus take it as an "all guys" accusation, while it really is not, the terrible thing is, that one can never tell. It is not everyone, but it could be anyone
This has been a pleasant surprise. Dr. Tracy Mark’s videos had helped me a whole lot when i was in my darkest days. Thank you so much for inviting her, Cinema Therapy!
I watched this movie relatively shortly after I started therapy to process my own history of assault. I was kinda worried that it would trigger me negatively, but it didn't. It created conversations. As for the ending, I watched an interview with the director. She said "it ended the way it needed to end" in that it's not a perfectly tied bow of a revenge story ending.
This movie gripped me to my core when I saw it in theatres. People sitting next to me had a pile of snacks and at the end of the movie realized they hadn't eaten any of them. I think that says a lot.
I have PTSD from multiple abuses (sexual, physical, verbal, emotional) as a child. Hearing Jono say things about it being ok to still feel the pain of past abuses, that it staying with you doesn't make you weak...that always makes me cry. I feel those words in my soul. So many people are of the, 'Just forget about it' frame of mind. You never do. Thanks for understanding, Jono.
The way I think of it is that you can heal from the trauma side of things, but I don't think most people could ever get to a point of not having negative feelings about it, because even just hearing that you've been abused (let alone in multiple ways) is upsetting. If I can feel upset about others going through that, I don't think it's realistic to not extend that same emotional reaction for myself. One can have an incredibly fulfilling and healthy life but still have things that make them cry at night. It's important.
One of the most valuable things that you guys touched on is how the abuser was just a regular guy. Always seeing abusers represented as shallow villains in media made me think I wasnt allowed to hate my abusers or hold their actions against them because they were much more similar to this guy, privileged, ignorant, entitled and doing what they think is normal. It was refreshing for me to see an abuser represented this way, truer to the nuances of life
Thank you for airing this episode. I'm a Sex Assault survivor. It happened to me 10 years ago and, even though I went to therapy 9 years ago, I have had moments where I have a hars time moving on with my romantic life. You guys gave some good points that I can talk and think about and I will also check out the resources given. Once again, I applaud you for tackling a topic and a film that many shy away from.
This movie is truly a lot to handle for anyone with first-hand trauma and secondary trauma, because it speaks the truth about our society. Throughout the film, I noticed that everyone who isn't a victim... including the women who never experienced trauma themselves... tells the main character to forget what had happened and move on as if it never had happened. That is such a toxic mindset. Trauma is there and it needs to be acknowledged before any healing can occur, but how can you heal when everyone around you says forget it and move on. 😰💀 BTW, I am loving these videos about teaching boys healthy masculinity and teaching them to be humane humans. 😎👍🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰 PS: Alan and Jon being teary eyed shows how much compassion and love they have with humanity. You can tell they truly care about the world and all within it. And boys need to see that and see that it is okay.
When I first watched this movie, I immediately went back and watched the entire thing again. I loved it, and think it’s a very important film. But I think my favourite part was when she stares down the guys catcalling her…I feel like that part of the movie gave me something.
I remember thinking at the end of the movie "why did she go to the house? And put herself in the situation! She knew she could get hurt." before realizing that's exactly the point this movie is getting at.
As someone who has dealt with sexual assault, please don’t let other people down play it for you. It is a big deal to have someone lay a hand on you without permission and you can talk about it and confront someone. It doesn’t matter if it ruins the party, the person who doesn’t hear the word no ruins the party.
This feels like it is SUCH a pernicious and widespread issue in our societies!!😣 If you complain about sexist treatment at work, then you're the problem employee... If you call people out on douchey 'humour', then you "can't take a joke"... If you campaign for equal treatment then you're an 'SJW' or 'feminazi'... If you criticise relatives for doing creepy stuff, then you must be overreacting. People are far to quick to blame survivors or turn on whistle-blower, rather than holding perpetrators to account - esp. if the latter are in any sort of position of power. Problematic behaviours are far too often downplayed by people who should know better, just because they don't want to rock the boat. Or even more awfully, perhaps they don't feel safe themselves to speak up...? As a collective, I believe we can all do way better - and we need to, if we want this constant damage to stop.
Kinda realised I have secondary trauma from hearing about the heartbreaks and abuse/ helping my friends who went through all of it and it has made a huge impact on my life.
I hadn't seen this movie but listening to a critic go over this movie had me in tears shaking. It took me some time to watch you guys go over this. I needed to be a more positive and stronger state of being but I'm so proud you guys for going over this movie with such an amazing psychiatrist.
Thank you so much for this. I am a psychologist, and for almost 40 years, I have counselled women who have been sexually assaulted and raped as girls and/or as adult women. For 15 years now, I am also cooperating with perpetrator programmes. So I can only agree with everything you have said.
You all were so close and I loved that you called her Batman but the pastel colors and cute hair is her femininity weaponized. She puts up a front for every part of her life to show people what they want to see. There’s a lot on this in interviews with Fennell. You’re not wrong and there are no wrong interpretations but I felt it important to mention
What sticks out is that of all the excuses, only the lawyer ever says sorry. None of them are genuinely guilty about what they did, they panic and start making excuses and demanding forgiveness and compassion whenever it negatively impacts them, but they don't spare an ounce of that compassion for the people they hurt.
The point about how it would be easier if he were perpetual predator is just what I find so chilling about dating - these guys will go on to have normal lives and how do you know what you're dating, as a woman? What you're getting married to? They may not even think what they did was wrong, but still know to hide it. Ugh. This movie is so disturbing the more time I spend with it.
@Viktoria Nemeth I’m so sorry, I just saw this two months later! Yeah, it’s been hard to learn, but I can finally understand that what he did is 100% on him. I’m still learning, but I’ve done a lot of healing, even in the months since I left that comment ❤️
Right! The guy who assaulted me is now married and has two young daughters. She is constantly raving on social media about what a wonderful partner and father he is. God help them. I hope they never get a taste of who he really is, but I know better. He never put in the necessary work to truly change. If he had, I would have at least received an apology by now.
@Eileen Snow Mine is also married now, with kids and everything. One thing I learned in therapy though is that we're never responsible for other people's actions. Like an another commenter already stated, it's unlikely that she knows the version of him that you knew. We can only hope that he became a better person towards his spouse. I hope you're okay
@Violet Silver Oof that hit me hard. My sister worked with the guy and strongly disapproved when she found out I was seeing him… Yeah, I definitely see your point. Thank you again. It’s a tough pill to swallow, but it’s true xx
this movie means a lot to me because for a long while I was Cassie (minus the revenge part LOL) and i personally have never seen secondary trauma portrayed this way. I relate to her so deeply and i think this film was just masterfully done, ESPECIALLY the ending. If she has survived it would have felt amazing, but it wouldnt have been real. That being said, this film is hella triggering to me. Even watching this video had me sobbing LOL, but I also just want to say that seeing you all really understand and explain what the message was felt validating in a way . It's also really nice to hear MEN understanding and really getting this film and it's something i think i needed to see
I wouldn't want any of my friends to be in danger in any way. That said, I found it very touching how much Carey Mulligan's character cares about her friend. I've found in the aftermath of assault, friends are more likely to drift away rather than become supportive. Again, this movie shows a very extreme example of support. But wow to have a friend who cares about you that much 🤯
I was SA'ed by a boyfriend, who then decided to tell all our friends "his side of the story" before I could, even though I wasn't going to tell a soul... I was basically told by our whole group of friends to forgive and forget because it would be awkward for everyone going forward. Even my dad said "well you seem okay now" when i told him. Seeing men like yourselves talk about how bad it is and feeling affected by this movie, is a therapy session to me, so thank you 💙
@QuiiuQ82 Oh my god that is awful.
@Papa Christ Change the therapist.
Or the ever popular refrains: Come on, it could have been worse.
You're going to make everything uncomfortable for everyone?
Just get over it and move on.
Stop being such a drama queen.
(I'm so very sorry this happened to you. Unfortunately, those are not your friends and it sucks to be in pain and realize you are also alone. It is a chance to find supportive friends as you move through it. )
It's 100x worse coming from another woman. After I was SA'ed by my boyfriend at the time, my mom just looked at me and said, "Are you sure it wasn't just bad sex?"
Yeah mom I'm pretty sure screaming my head off in pain (Nobody came to investigate BTW and this happened in an apartment building with parked cars outside) and telling him no aren't "just bad sex". The cherry on top is, she's been SA'd in the past, too.
The difference between Alfred Molina's begging forgiveness and Bo Burnham's *demanding* forgiveness is heart-wrenching. Molina's character has been crippled with guilt, because he knows the harm he's done; harm that can never be undone. Burnham's character was "caught" and as a young doctor, all he's thinking about is his career and his reputation. In his mind, he's a "nice guy", a "promising young man", if you will-probably even considers himself a feminist-and he can't let a little lapse in judgement ruin his life. But he showed no indication of actual remorse, the way Molina's character did.
The biggest difference is truly understanding and acknowledging the harm that they caused even though neither of them "meant to". One was "just doing his job" and the other "made a mistake in college". While it's true that neither people are evil sadists who set out to hurt others, you don't have to be one in order to cause irreversible damage. People get so hung up on their intention to be a "nice guy" or "good person", that they cannot acknowledge that they have failed. You'll notice that Cassie forgives the lawyer. Sometimes that's all victims really want. A genuine acknowledgment and understanding of the pain their perpetrators actions have caused, regardless of what their intent was.
@Benjamin Green
You put it all so perfectly
When he demanded she forgive him, my thought was "you never said sorry or even showed remorse or repentance. You were lying about it until she showed you the proof."
Bo never says "sorry". He doesn't seem remorseful or even act it! He just demands her forgiveness for.... nothing
@Luboman411 - and more than that, the “nice guy” likes to think he’s clean because he was just a passive observer of the rape incident. All this time, he’s believed, “Hey, I didn’t rape the girl, so I have nothing to feel guilty about!” Through his character, ALL of us are being called out for our passive participation in rape culture.
With regard to race, it is insufficient to merely be “not a racist”; for real racial justice to happen, we must be actively ANTI-racist-that is, to look inward at our own prejudices and actions (no need to feel guilty though; just be open to acknowledging our mistakes and work to correct them), and fight against systems of racial oppression (laws, policies, culture).
Bringing this back to the original topic, it’s not sufficient to be “not sexist”, but to actively be ANTI-misogyny and rape culture. Bo Burnham’s character assumed that he was the “good guy”, because he was “not a sexist”, and had never raped anyone himself. But he didn’t intervene when he witnessed a rape actually happening right in front of him, nor did he report it when he could have. His silence was tacit approval.
couple things i love:
- i love how from the start, bo's character still gives hints that he isn't all he's cracked up to be, just in his dialogue. he doesn't take a clear hint to stay away and respect boundaries (spitting in his coffee, declining his date), lightly guilts her into a friendship with him (where he'll be pining for her the entire time), offhandedly disrespects her (asks what shes doing working at a coffee shop), commands her to go on a date with him ("Have lunch with me with weekend.") and at one point even calls her a "miserable asshole" and says "Let me finish you stupid bitch" when she asks him to stop talking (in a scene that's painted affectionately!) his love for her has Always been tainted by the sexism he has been raised with.
- the scene with cassie forgiving the lawyer painting her in an almost godlike reverence? her light blue dress as she lays her hand on the back of a man kneeling at her feet, begging her for forgiveness- it's like mary passing down judgement on a sinner. that's one of the more magical (going with the revenge fantasy surrealism) scenes to me, how he can finally sleep at the grace of this woman.
i really hope to see you do perfect blue in the future!
@Jenny I was replying to a comment that’s since been deleted.
@Raging Zim I think you are mixing up the characters. He didn't have anything to do with her death or burial.
@Raging Zim ..Who said who's a good dude?
I don't think she was wasting away there, she liked the manager and it was an in-between place for her at worst.
@Susanna Iris Astarte Probably. He strikes me more as the kind of bad person who watches things happen and doesn't stop them, then the kind who does them.
In addition to, "Don't be that guy" I'd like to say "Don't allow the people in your life to be that guy". It's hard to stand up to your friends and speak out when something feels wrong, but it is so important. If you hear a friend make a "joke" or comment that feels disrespectful or sleazy, please say something.
@Eileen Snow well siad
I watch their channel a lot and I’d believe if he clarified to say “don’t be any man in this film.” Sometimes we don’t always say what we mean clearly. Just that is the intention of the movie, they were all wrong. The perpetrators, the bystanders, the brush-under-the-rug-ers, the victim blamers. That made up of nearly all the characters save for her and the three parents we see. “That guy” could be almost any guy or gal in this movie.
I ended up cutting someone out of my life for somewhat similar behavior. Any time at night he'd text "I wish I could see what you were wearing" or "I wish I could see what you looked like". If I was in bed I'd send him a pic of the darkness or if I was in the bathroom, it was always a closeup of a towel. He'd always respond with "no what's under the towel". And when we we're gaming together it would occasionally go to "what would you do if I kissed you?" My usual was "I'd smack you really hard". He responded with "that's a bit harsh but I was joking". Bet he started flaking on me cause I never let him closer to me. Dude went to military and when he came back I thought he might've changed but nope. So I kindly grilled into him and told him to F off out of my life. It's been years and now I can analyze the red flags that at the time didn't look like much in my teen years. Ew
@Ariane Winter that's why I said communication is important. In my country people often are more in need of humor 'cause life can be very cruel sometimes. Humor has it's place and importance and making people be afraid of unintentionally stepping on a landmine will in the long run have more bad consequences than positives ones. It starts with comedy and goes on with being afraid of saying something bad, you even see it today when people are afraid to say anything because they don't trust anyone being ready to look over the comment and actually understand the intention behind the statement.
@Fogg Frog kinda yes kinda no, a joke is different then a serious statement, but that does not mean it is OK. It still desensitise and can make people feel very unsafe as well as give people the impression you would be OK with worse
As a woman it's always incredibly healing and brings me hope to see male role models just acknowledging this. The level of relief I feel is tangible. It makes the world feel a little safer and more hopeful for all of us.
@aura le Good thing she feels relief then and nothing was said about permission. Also, don't command her, she doesn't need your orders. Unlearn that.
We dont need men's permission to heal or resolve anything. We dont need their permission for anything. Unlearn that.
this. a million times.
Can we talk about how Cassie's parents never say to her "Hey maybe you should go to a therapist or a grief counselor?" They expect her to just move on and let it go, and I feel like that is such a realistic boomer parent response to trauma.
Her parents have to live the rest of their lives, now, knowing that they gave their daughter a suitcase for her birthday... shortly before she was murdered.
To be fair to the boomers generation, their parents weren't there for them at all, and taught them that trauma is just a part of life that you just need to deal with. The builder generation, after all, lived through two world wars, a pandemic and a horrendous depression, so they had all had trauma in their past and zero systems in place to help them deal with it. Even the boomers, though they lived through a time of intense social change, didn't have those kind of systems in place. And not all of the therapy during the 19th century was healthy. Think of the controversy of the satanic panic and false recovered memories because immortal or immature therapists used a combination of drugs, hypnosis and suggestions to convince their clients that traumas other than what they were really dealing with had actually happened.
Psychology and counseling practices have come a long way, but there were some messed up ideas and practices that therapist during the boomers era participated in, so let's curb our outrage that they are suspicious about that vocation. Context is important.
When we know better, we do better.
Sadly that's very common in the US, and probably elsewhere. Everyone is just supposed to move on, bury it, pretend it never happened... and then they acted shocked when the person commits suicide.
O_o My parents are therapists AND boomers ... so ... not all of them.
It’s not that she’s triggered by him asking her if she wants to come up to his apartment, it’s that he waited until they were on the front steps to tell her where they were; it’s underhanded that he withheld that information and then pretended to be surprised poorly. It was just another “nice guy” move. He didn’t force himself on her, but he still withheld information and then propositioned her with the added pressures of being there, sunk cost fallacy and fear of being perceived as “rude”.
@sillyxostar I agree with all of what you said in regards to consent and it’s why I didn’t want to do anything and refused. The next day I had to reassure her that she wasn’t “rapey” and at no point did I really feel threatened by her (I’m a 6’3 at 230 lbs. She’s 5’6 at 160 lbs). I spent more time trying to get her to relax.
We did go out more and hung out more. Eventually we did have sex. But she was EXTREMELY inconsistent about her moods and wants. On one hand she’s blowing up my phone with messages about how she wants to mess around. And on the other, she feels like I was just using her for sex. This was after seeing each other for like 3 weeks. Things didn’t work out because she had a lot of self problems that she didn’t really work on.
But my point is that trying to feel for what’s right and what’s wrong early on sucks ass. You have to take into account her opinions/wants and whether you might go to jail vs you coming off as a wuss/ “not being a man.” All while you yourself want to have a good time.
Obv I’ll take not getting laid over going to jail. But it sucks when you feel like you have to accept that you choosing to “respect her” will mean that what might have been something will go nowhere.
@jackbrax7808 I know you asked this a couple months ago but I was scrolling comments and saw no one answered you so I figured I'd answer 🤷♀️
I think you were right to not further things with that girl. Intoxicated/under the influence people cannot consent. Even if they are convincing lol (it'd maybe be different if you'd had prior sober relations with her but for starting off, best to play it safe)
If when she sobers up and says she wishes you would've tried to, then that sounds like a green light to me! And, she'd probably be delighted and trust you more because you respected her the first time around and showed self control. Enthusiastic consent is the best consent!
And always remember, consent can be retracted at any given point, and although it sucks to stop what you're doing in the middle of things, no or stop always means no.. no matter what. Follow that and you're in the clear! 💖
(ETA: Sorry for the kinda essay 😅 I didn't intend to go on like that haha)
I had the same thought. He was walking her to his house without saying. He tricked her. Creepy move. If he wasn't trying to push or coerce he could have given her an out before, like my apartments this way but here is the bus or something. I could even forgive him walking her home cause he could have meant it as a gentleman.
@First Last I wish everything was the clear. I was with a girl at her place and we had talked prior that she didn’t want me to try and kiss her or do anything. Cool. No problem. She and I drink a little (she drank a lot) and she expressed that I should’ve kissed her a couple times. She later wanted to do more then that. I eventually said no and she kept trying until I left. She later regretted it but she said that she wanted everything that was going on and was expecting me to be more “ambitious.”
Shit like this makes things hard. Am I being a man by desiring a woman that wants it? Or am I being too forceful?
@KZclip Witch cinema therapy actually did a "nice guy" vs "good guy" video. And this one fit that version of "nice guy" but absolutely not "good guy"
I took her line “I’m so sorry I didn’t go with her” to mean “I’m sorry I didn’t take my life when she did.” Because that makes everything else she does make sense. She is on a revenge crusade, it it seems clear she didn’t care if it cost her her life because she stopped living when Nina did.
Jordan's "I'll never forgive myself for what I did, I'm so sorry" versus Ryan's "You gotta forgive me." Such a wide difference.
Yup, he was legitimately affected by what she found out, but really only to the extent that it could harm him. He didn’t show real remorse.
I remember being at a gathering where a guy was insisting that "not all." I told my story to him, then a friend told her story...and so on. There ended up being a group of girls around him talking about our experiences and he did end up getting emotional. It was really wild seeing someone's eyes get opened in real time.
@thousandyard gavri278 I think it is a rather weird take to say "don't make someone uncomfortable" when the thing that makes them uncomfortable is by just telling the truth about their experiences.
The point isn't to say "you are wrong, every man is like that.". It is about how the phrase "not all men" is so often used to downplay this huge problem of our society. It is brought up as soon as a woman talks about what happened to her. It is so often used to say "yeah, yeah. That is bad and all. But don't be so dramatic because not everyone is bad! So we don't need to change anything." Or as an automatic defense reaction. "Why are you telling me that? Are you accusing me? Well it is not all men so leave me out of this."
If he feels uncomfortable by realizing that people close to him are affected by this, it is a good thing imo. Because it makes him realize that he can't just push it away and ignore it. It could cause him to be more aware of what is happening and be alert when something seems suspicious or wrong. Maybe it will make him speak up. Instead of hiding behind "it is not all men so how should I know if that guy really is a danger right now"
You can't change if you don't understand the gravity of a problem. You need to feel uncomfortable to want change.
@kay it really is just this depressing sort of thing that most women are brought up to expect this sort of thing to happen, so we're taught literal survival skills (don't go out alone at night, carry your keys between your knuckles, carry pepper spray, don't leave your friends alone/stay in a group) and yet it always ends up happening anyway, and then we STILL have guys trying to deny how many people it happens to
Is he insisting "not all guys are bad"? Because its true.. and even if all the women in the world tell me an awful experience about a guy, its still true that not every guy is bad. That guy must be so uncomfortable with a bunch of girls telling him how wrong he is.
Im not totally on his side because I dont know the details.. he could be telling you passively that he's one of those guys just to lure you in. The og post is a bit unclear. Bottomline is, don't make someone uncomfortable..
@Peter Adams I was referencing the original comment as well. I totally agree, though. The double standards across the board are outrageous. I'm sorry that happened to you; no one should be grabbed like that. It takes a lot of courage to share experiences like this in a public setting, and I appreciate you doing so. I wish that this behaviour would be treated with more seriousness than it is. Harassment is too often downplayed or laughed off, especially when it's women perpetrating it. Women can absolutely be predators, too, and should be called out for it. It's another form of sexism that men can't be victims and women can't be aggressors. It's important to call out harassment and assault for what it is and stop enabling it. No one deserves to feel unsafe.
I wish I had a better solution for this, but I don't think there is an easy one out there. Regardless, I hope these final weeks of the year treat you well, and that 2023 is a happy year for you!
@kipandren My response was on the original poster, and yes I had my bad experiences with women. It's the double standards of women that tick me of the most tbh. For example I once had in class a girl making a speech about how she did not like that a 'certain guy' grabbed her ass and went in full details in how unpleasent it was and why he should stop doing it. She did not want to name him, but the whole class knew who he was. After class I stepped outside with that guy since I was curious about his response but then I got grabbed in my ass and when I turned arround it was "that girl" that had just given "that speech" who had done it... I could not believe this actually happend, but yes this double standard would hit me more often later in live.
The statistic for how many women have been sexually assaulted means that everyone knows at least one. If you don't know one it's because she isn't comfortable sharing that with you. 400,000 rape kits go untested primarily because police don't investigate. 1 at least out of every 5 women experience sexual assault, the majority occurring during women's college age years. Thank you for covering a difficult subject with such courtesy. Dr. Marks was a superb guest and I hope she will be back again.
@Morghena Some feminists recognize men have issues. While others (idk the percentage or total numbers) but some protest when men try to gather and talk about their issues. They protest about male privilege when men try to gather and talk about issues around self deletion etc. Let us talk about our issues and we will feel less overwhelmed when the constant stream of news stories with only female victims or lgbt victims are discussed.
@Eliana thats not an arguement.
thats just emotional rage not rational arguing so...
voided try again
@Eliana bruh same goes for women then
if you want EQUALITY then stop blasting your issues too.
Lets see how long you last when every time you are hurt emotionally anf physically youre just told to "Man up" and suffer alone all the time.
My friend HATES this movie for her dying at the end, says it's a cheap shot and for some shock factor and edginess. I think it's lost on her that her that the point is these men are so protected that she had to die to get them any consequences. That everyone can be a victim, nobody levels up to "girl boss" and is suddenly immune from men ruining her life like her friend. The power these men have over her doesn't go away, she just gained power over him in return.
I disagree that Cassie was too far gone, or that she wished she had died when Nina had; the latter especially doesn’t make sense, as there would’ve been no justice whatsoever if they both died at the same time. I don’t think her death was the only thing that would’ve made sense, but I can see why it happened. At the same time, I’m very glad there wasn’t a bloodbath ending; it would not have given Cassie the relief she really needed, or given Al Any time to face up to what he did wrong, or live as anything but a pillar of the community to everyone who knew him. He needs to face the same kind of reality that Molina’s character did, and that can only happen by facing the lives he cost.
I think the thing that is unrealistic to me is not her being killed, rather it is the fact the groom and co. are arrested. The realistic version is that they will never face any real, legal consequences for their actions.
Even of she lived she would not have ended up happy, she was far too gone at this point. There would've been no real happy ending for her.
@TsukiKatana "That's a man's way, more masculine and aggressive"
You do realize that that phrase itself is sexist, right?
It's like saying that women can only take revenge if they sacrifice themselves since they are incapable of doing the "man's way" (In other words, the "correct way" (sarcasm))
And this criticism is not directed at you, but at the creators...
Personally, I liked the ending.
I really admired the decision to cast actors known primarily for their comedic work, such as Bo Burnham, Chris Lowell, Adam Brody or Christopher Mintz-Plasse, as entitled "Nice Guys" who aren't as benign as they initially appear. We WANT to like them, until they do shady things, which highlights the film's message of not judging a book by its cover.
@Anitra Moore yea nice doesnt mean good. frankly mean people can be good underneath it all. also some people say oh you should have caught it sooner but some people hide who they truly are! it takes time to get to know people. even with friends, coworkers etc
Exactly
Also most comedians have the most trauma and it’s probably why they can tap into the dramatic acting seemingly so effortlessly
@ChristineTheHippie same w/ police and the military they're generally trustworthy and respectable as they should be but theyre definitely capable of bad like anyone else
As a survivor, that movie was everything I wanted. My agressor went on to have a life, a new girlfriend, a job. I went on to have six years of therapy and continuous trauma. And I do use my voice now to uplift other survivors and to keep men accountable, and I will fight to make the little difference I can, but utlimately, it's men's responsibility to change the way they act around women. YPW really hit that nail over and over, and I loved every second of it even if I was crying the whole time 😅
I, a brown woman from India, have been following your channel for a while and I LOVE Alan’s take on most things, but especially this film.
Just one thing, another reason as to why Cassie is all pastel-y and girl-y is because a) Guys often tend to go for younger women, and b) the candy-ish aesthetic is the exact opposite of the themes and plot of the film.
@Luboman411 I love those movies as well! The ideas of femininity, both aesthetic and performative, are so very interesting in all three of these films. But especially this one given that it's more of a "female rage" sorta one.
@Ilona Speaking from personal experience, that is so very true. Especially if one has experienced SA at a younger age, it's almost both catching up on lost time and being comfortable enough to experience things you couldn't before.
Well, I took the girly, pastel colors and candy-ish aesthetics to be a rebellion against the prevailing films of this genre--the "tough women who got raped and are now avenging bad-asses" movies. In those movies, there is a strong male aesthetic and male point of view--dark colors, shadows, lots of weapons, lots of fights, lots of tough posturing from the strong, avenging women. But here, we get completely into the female point of view--no fights, just getting these guys to understand how awful they are. A damaged woman who couldn't move beyond her trauma. A woman who was ultimately killed by misogyny and horrific male violence. I thought it was a very interesting way to make this film distinctly female, the use of pastels and candy-ish aesthetics almost everywhere. It reminded me of "Mean Girls" and "Bridesmaids," two heavily female movies that I LOVE.
A common coping mechanism to deal with trauma when we're not adults yet by the time we're assaulted is also to surround ourselves and enjoy all things cute. Kawaii, cute, adorable, pastel colours, all of that stuff brings us joy because we had to grow up too early.
I took her interaction with him outside his apartment not as a backslide in her trauma but as a red flag in his behavior. It sort of felt like suddenly he pulled a move that all the men she finds at clubs pull. Oops look we're at my house!
Yep me too... I didn't trust him after that
@Christy Murphy that's not something just men do, women do this, too. The difference is that men don't have the awareness about sex as we women have and tend to not see it as a big deal.
It doesn't necessarily make them bad people for using this tactics but it's neither a good thing to do.
To use such tactics to increase the possibility of things going your way is something we've to teach everyone not to misuse
@pretengineer I didn’t notice that, but I’m going to have to go back and see it! That leads even more credence to what we’re saying!
Agreed, and there's a giant red flag physically in the scene. If you rewatch the film, there's something bright red in every "red flag" scene. Amazing filmmaking!
@Christy Murphy yeah there were many infuriating parts in this and I had to stop watching because they kept acting like Cassie was the broken one 🙄
This episode made me want to watch this movie, so I did. I had avoided it because I'm a survivor of sexual violence, so I was worried that it would be triggering. It actually turned out not to be for me. In fact, it's been empowering in a way I wouldn't have expected.
I loved and appreciated that the movie never explicitly showed what happened to Nina. So many times in media, traumatic incidents are played up to the point of feeling exploitive. I appreciated that we, the viewers, never invaded Nina's privacy by watching her worst moment.
I also loved that the movie very blatantly states what behaviors are unacceptable and why. I also got a strong message to survivors - you need to find a way to heal and let go of what happened to you, otherwise it will be the death of you. It's hard, but letting go and living your best, healthiest, and happiest life is the best revenge against your attacker. They don't get to take any more of your life. They don't get to cause any more pain.
I'm glad you got to see this movie. I also was afraid it would be triggering but I wound up feeling more validated than anything else.
"These guys get to move on and clean up their act... But the people they assault don't". That really made this make sense. Thank you for the analysis.
This made me do angry in the past im glad someone put it into words
“Didn’t make an impact, huh?”
That line was a lot. There was disappointment, disgust and a sense that this is what she expected (like when you expect a bad outcome and are disappointed when you’re right)
People use the expression, "It must be nice to be right all the time." No. It isn't. It's crushing.
That line. Terrible and great.
exactly. and I'm getting GOT8 flashbacks.
Oh I didn't read her fashion as childish but as feminine. Part of the strength of her character is that she takes action but not by dressing like a man, or acting like a man.
Gotta say idk if I appreciate her style being read as childish. Equating feminine with childish is part of why women don't get taken seriously.
She clearly didn't move on and all but I can't agree with the "regression" interpretation.
They said her style is feminine and childish, but I think the word they're looking for is "girlish." It's not that femininity is automatically childish, but that Cassie dresses in ways that many little girls dress, hence the hair ribbons and pastels. By contrast, when she's wears a blazer and skirt to the club, she's still feminine, it’s just adult femininity.
I think it may show she is stuck and also is using it as bait/trap. Although she could just use it when out at the bars and have different clothes and hairstyle at home and other times. It would actually make more sense as a vigilant. So I think her clothes do suggest a more childlike attitude/ mindset and stuck at a certain age basically.
@Michelle Beaudoin I kept waiting to see someone mention the juice box, thank you
While I agree that it can be pastel in the sense of assuming femininity. In the scene, they do make her drink out of a cardboard juice box while the mom tells her to stop being a child... I though this was quite telling of the intentions of the filmmaker.
@Cerise is a Color Cassie wasn't traumatized when she was a child. She was traumatized when she was in med school, in her mid-20s. She was a fully grown adult. She wasn't "emotionally stuck in the age she was at the traumatic event" because she wasn't a small girl when all this happened to her. I think her need for "junior's clothing" was a subconscious way to venerate her dead friend, Nina, who had been her dearest childhood friend. Her dropping out of med school, living with her parents, working at a coffee shop were indirect ways of reliving her childhood past with Nina. It was her way of grieving. She needed a good therapist to move beyond all of this, to get her life on track again.
21:12 I get the point of what's being said, but I read somewhere that the decision to portray Cassie like this was conscious. She's embracing femininity and being herself, in the sense that often society views makeup, accessories etc as vain indulgence.
The entire film has a colourful pallette to show the idea that this is also a part of female experience. Granted, not every woman is like that, but some are and they shouldn't be shamed for liking it.
Yes, exactly this! Conscious choices by Emerald Fennell!
“Rom com in the middle of all this trauma threw me off” that’s life as a woman. Some guys are these guys and some guys are so so freaking cute and honest and endearing BUT it’s hard to trust the actually good guys because there’s so many not actually good guy experiences.
@Nemamka 😅 isn’t that the truth! And thank you, yours too!
@Kristi Bunny Hahah I'm bi too! I also had a previous girlfriend with whom I was like... do I really like women at all? Anyway it was weird and I did go back to dating guys for a hot moment but then everything turned out better than expected. Thank you and I hope you've also found the right one this time ♥ It's a blessing and a curse that bi/pan people have so many options lmao
@Nemamka 👏🏼 (it’s a high five lol) yeah I’m bi, a gal was one of my “trauma in the middle of nice” and ran me off from dating gals. Anyway found a great guy for now and if he doesn’t work out then single for life lol no I’d prolly give dating gals another go (not getting married more than 3 times though lol calling it now) anyway glad you’re happy now fam 🏳️🌈
@Kristi Bunny ah well I saw many agreements regarding this in some other similar comment's repleis so... anyway yeah, you're right, I found my soulmate but it's actually another woman so 😅 guess I hacked the system
@Nemamka exactly. Sorry you get it (honestly sorta happy more haven’t maybe there’s less of us than I thought). Hang in there though there are some actually good ones!
I love so many of the subtleties of the movie! (Spoilers ahead!)
1. The casting of the likable actors with a background in comedy for most of the male roles, showing that no one is "safe" to be around.
2. Nina being called Nina. Because in Spanish that name more or less means "(little) girl" and she could have been any of us.
3. Cassandra in mythology is the prophet who is never believed.
4. The pen color in the notebook where she marks her night's out depends on how the guy's acted and what lesson she taught them.
5. The director asked a family member in law enforcement how long it would take to suffocate someone and they said 2.5 minutes, which is why that's roughly the amount of time the camera holds on that specific scene.
I'm sure there's more, but those were the things I remembered.
Cassandra is not only a prophet, but she's cursed when she continuously resists Apollo's sexual advances. So that name is very appropriate for the protagonist of this movie.
Being raped is the single worst thing I can imagine happening to me, not just because of the assault itself but because of how society treats women who have been raped. And because it's so common in the US, especially in the military and in college, we as women live in such a state that every decision we make is influenced by trying to avoid rape.
MEN DON'T CARE WHEN WOMEN SAY NO. MEN NEED TO TELL OTHER MEN NO.
also bc since rapists already see women as objects, women telling men won't do anything. It's a men's problem.
@RedFox689 Any man that would be suspicious of you or denigrate you because of past trauma is trash. You deserve so much better than that. I hate how men make us hate ourselves instead of focusing our anger on them where it belongs. I wish we could all be born into communities of women - to be free to grow and thrive without fear. Female bodies aren't a curse, they are amazing and powerful. It's our culture and the way it treats female bodies that is wrong. I never reported or talked to anyone. It's taken decades for me to come to terms and start healing. If I'd had someone supportive to talk to it wouldn't have taken so long. I believe you can get to a place where you'll find some peace within yourself and I wish you well.
@RedFox689 I am so sorry this happened to you. You are not alone in these terrible experiences - but it feels different for everybody and it feels like you are alone. Therapy didn't help me AT ALL with my SA-experience (for many people therapy does help, but i had a terrible therapist considering this specific topic), but it did help me with other aspects and gave me the ability to work on my self worth and have more control and agency over my own life. I used to hate my body, too and wished I was a man. Many years later and through 2 bouts of therapy, I do not wish this anymore. I also realized how horrible male culture can be.
Again, I am sorry you went through this.
Yup, this is exactly how I live my life, yet it still happened to me. My best friend of 5 years... in my sleep. I went to the police... twice. Nothing happened. Every decision was weighed by that fear, I missed out on a lot of probably great opportunities to make and be with friends, but the risk is just too high. No matter how cautious, it still happened.
Now here I am, alone, no friends. This has rotted me from the inside out. I have broken down so far all my relationships crumble because SA is the only thing my brain can talk about anymore. Cant keep a boyfriend because they see me as dirty, sl*tty, a lair, like I am going to lie and go to the police about them just because I explain what happened to me. I don't want to have sex with someone without explaining I have vaginismus(a medical condition as a result of abuse), so we have to be careful, or they will damage me and trigger a PTSD episode. I just say if they don't intend to hurt me, then there is nothing to fear, yet... I constantly have to tell them I won't lie to the police.
They see the scars on my legs (self abuse) and think I'm a crazy b*tch... So far, every guy I have dated has some form of this bias. All I ask is to be reassured I'm not being used as a hole, not to be treated as a hole, yet it keeps happening, and I am just an agoraphobic internet hermit now, too afraid to even interact with anyone.
I can't help but hate this female body I was cursed with, not only for how it's been used against my will, but the fact I have a severe parasite phobia on top of being able to get pregnant in a world that sees me as breeding stock. I would rather jump if I got pregnant, yet they deny me sterilization over and over and over again. There is nothing to love about this body of mine. I wish I was born a man...
So true...
I love how this film turned the “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” around and showed just how much trauma can ruin someone’s life. I hate how many films and series make it seem like only way for women to become strong is to face abuse that hardens them. I can’t even describe how grimly satisfying I find this films portrayal of what trauma can do to you and how rarely the people responsible for it face any consequences whatsoever. Unfortunately in real life lot of the time women only get justice for the violence they have suffered after they die and this story doesn’t shy away from it.
Exactly part of why I can’t stand rape revenge movies.
@Mr Dee better? Also the abusers are both genders in this movie , although the main culprit is a man who no one believes can be an abuser.
Reminds me that films like I spit on your grave exist
Uhm, this is an example of an unhealthy person dealing with grief, not a refutation of strength through adversity. The solution the film offers makes no one stronger and is as misguided as any over the top sermon guilting people into good behavior
I love the scene where she goes to visit the lawyer. It made me look at the main character in a whole other light. Like, before that scene, she just seemed like she was out for revenge, and that was it. After that scene, I realized that she didn't really want revenge, exactly. She wanted the people involved in her friend's death to recognize what they did, acknowledge that they hurt someone, and actually apologize for not stopping it when they had the chance. Made me look back at the things she did to everyone else that was involved, and think about how, yeah, she gave them all a chance to recognize the situation and apologize for it. It was only after they all doubled down on their choices, denied any wrongdoing, or blamed the victim, that she acted out her revenge against them.
This movie is powerful in so many ways. I went into it knowing every single twist, but was still devastated when each of them happened. I have two issues with this analysis.
1. Cassie is stuck in a childlike state after her best friend's rape and death. But I don't think the outwardly appearance has to signify that. There is nothing wrong with girly interests and pastel colors. The makes chose that aesthetic not to portray her stunted development, but to communicate that this work has been made by women (the writer/director and the lead, also produced by Margot Robbie among others) for women and girls.
2. I like the idea that Al could have improved since raping Nina, but I don't think he actually did. There isn't much evidence one way or the other since Al isn't in much of the movie. But when Cassie confronts him, he doesn't really express remorse in any form. Also after neutralizing Cassie, there is no need for him to kill her. There is a reason why Fennel chose to make the sequence about two and half minutes long. Two actually - One famously because that is the average time it takes to strangle a person according to her policeman father in law. Two, he could have stopped at any point of time after knocking her out. He killed her. This is not a gun shot heat of the moment thing. He strangled her for two and half minutes, just like he raped Nina for presumably longer than that. This man is despicable. The horror is that he isn't an outlier psycho. He is an every person, a pretty respected one at that.
Well said! The point about Al choosing to continue for the whole two and a half minutes is so important. I think the earlier bit where he claimed to be loyal to his fiancee showed one side of him, but the other side was definitely still there, as we see later on. Again, I love how this film doesn't paint anyone as black and white, even the main baddie himself is not one dimensional and has a "nice guy" side.
I remember when a woman started killing the bus drivers who raped women in Juarez. As an SA abuse survivor I did not choose revenge but I can't lie. Part of me was happy that someone chose revenge.
In the scriptures when someone raped they got the death penalty
At times, I could see myself taking the same path as Cassie. I have never been assaulted but I hate that it happens to others and think the consequences should be much harsher for perpetrators.
@SinHurr
I get your point, and I don't advocate vigilante justice, but at the same time I almost wonder if we already push a totally self-centered narrative of healing yourself and moving on. How many women are pressured into dropping everything and quietly taking themselves to therapy while their attackers go totally unchallenged to attack again?
@Cat Lily There's also a box of self-healing in a nearby isle I guess but few people think to go look there.
Look it's not my best metaphor but I'm trying. Grocery stores are hard.
I was SA'ed by a good friend of mine a few years ago and that was when i learned that predators are Not like they're potrayed in the movies, but often just your normal guy next door. The film potrays this in a great way and i really enjoyed your take on it! Yes, this is the movie every 14 year old dude should watch.
14 is too late to hear this message. I was first SAed at 12 years old, the perpetrators were the same age. It starts so much younger than anyone wants to admit. I loved this film, it was like therapy for me, and your comments about one party being allowed to move on while the other is stuck in the past were spot on. Keep doing what you’re doing.
@J Sharp please don't compare a viewing experience to actual SA/Rape. it's very degrading to someone who's actually gone through it, in a society that always finds ways to minimize or justify it. Watching a movie IS NOT the same, triggering? Sure absolutely, possibly traumatic? Maybe, but school shootings get reported on the news all the time and people don't censure kids from that nearly as much. But to say Watching a fictionalized version of SA is the SAME as actually being SA'd is overstepping the bounds and indicates to me that you are very fortunate to have probably NOT have been in a situation like that in your life (if you have, my deepest empathy's, but my point is still, that your initial comment is insensitive and desensitizing by saying a person Watching movie and an actual victim experience the same trauma)Lots of other comments here have pointed out that it starts much younger than adults are willing to admit. My mom had me enrolled in self defense classes at 5. Still got SA'd at 19, 21 and 22.
@Kye I'm so sorry that happened to you and I hope you know it wasn't your fault.
@HippieBeachChick THANK YOU. Parents in general seem to be in denial about this. Head in the sand.
@Mel ...little does he know though if his kids have or haven't been SA'd by that age. For me it was age 9 - 11.
I agree about 14 being too late. I would say maybe have multiple conversations starting young that get more detailed but still age appropriate. I wouldn’t have children watch this film before 14 though since it might be wayyy too much and be counterproductive.
I was 5, 7, 12, 17-19, 21 and I was the same age as them until my late teens when I started dating older people possibly in an attempt to be respected but I wasn’t. At 7 it was a group of boys my age and I estimate that at least 5 were involved but nothing happened to them even though a teaching assistant for my year helped afterwards, she knew what happened but I guess she said nothing
In almost every interview about the film, Fennell and Mulligan kept reiterating that it was primarily a film about grief, not the standard rape revenge film people kept expecting. While the trailer do make it seem like her bar work was a bigger element of the film than it was, some people let their expectations get ahead of them, and then were upset when the movie didn't meet those expectations. Honestly, if the film followed the standard 'Girl gets raped, then turns into a empowered badass', I would've HATED it. Rape is not empowering and this film shows that.
@Rowan Hoyt Kill Bill immediately comes to mind. Enough starring Jennifer Lopez. Lots of 1970s horror movies, which aren’t my jam so I’m not the one to ask about that.
Girl with the dragon tattoo has some satisfying revenge scenes.
That’s all I can think of off the top of my head. I’m sure a bunch of really obvious ones will come to me in the next 48 hours.
quick question where are the movies with that 'standard' cliche? (genuinely asking). As a survivor myself, personally I would love to see someone going full John Wick on rapists
@Gina O Exactly
Exactly
Despite the similar dialogue between the scene with the boyfriend and the lawyer, we get very different framing that lays out the subtext: the lawyer is asking, begging to be forgiven. He's legitimately sorry for his part in this. He still remembers. The boyfriend doesn't remember and we get a very different reaction from him. He TELLS her to forgive him, trys to manipulate her into forgiving him. Read the lawyer in her lap, vs. the boyfriend standing over her, even as he's leaned back.
The blocking and camera angles are genius and tell a story itself. Very interesting to see even these clips of it. The strange framing is unsettling, makes us feel like vouyers on these lives, and shows who has the power but then it can easily shift. So well done.
This movie to me as a woman was incredible. When the government and the system fails women over and over again we eventually have to take it in our own hands
I honestly thought she was going to way worse. She didn’t do anything wrong. I wished she had done more but I still appreciated the movie. I’ve always said if one in 5 women are raped in their lifetime than how many men are rapists? But we never hear that statistic, do we?
@Scooter Girl what are we supposed to do? no one will help us. watch the movie. Believe Me: The Abduction of Lisa McVey its on youtube, it shows that just catching the guys help victims alot, and when people are willing to put their own life at risk for the chance at saving others, thats when you know that they have been failed too many times
I think they are trying to say don't do that.
The fact that people like Andrew tate and the fresh and fit podcast are reaching prepubescent boys is terrifying really hope schools show this to help break down rape culture
@Ethan Adade I mean this in the nicest way possible - it seems like you don’t have a great sense of what misogyny entails. It’s not surprising, a lot of these messages are not new, but if you really think about it, they are absolutely not okay. There are some good analysis videos on the whole situation on KZclip, I would highly recommend you check them out.
@Ethan Adade they don’t sound misogynistic they just are they push abusive behaviour as normal things and it’s straight up dangerous
I don’t think he or fresh and fit are trying to perpetuate rape culture even though I’m not a huge fan of fresh and fit. I understand some of the things Andrew Tate says SOUNDS misogynistic but I don’t think that’s the case.
@Ethan Adade watch any video of Andrew Tate talking about how you should treat a woman if she isn’t doing what u want or rejects you
I love that Cassie uses phycological tactics rather than brute force because it is more impactful in the long run and is more relatable to me and so many other women
I don’t know if I’m alone on this but it would be interesting to see if other people feel the same way.
Although I’m sure what you guys said is 100% correct, I viewed the scene of ‘accidentally’ walking by his house as a way to show subtle male dominance. In all honesty, I think it blind sided her and took the control out of her hands and she felt that. From a woman’s point of view, you’re going for a nice walk, enjoying yourself when unknowingly he’s just directed you to his house. As a woman it makes you feel out of control and like you’re no longer on a level playing field. I think a lot of men don’t realise just how intimidating that kind of situation can be or how much pressure it puts on a woman to go inside even if they had the best of intentions. Instead of mutually agreeing to go back to a house there’s an uneven power play and it ends up with the woman feeling like they should go in even if they may not want to. And to add to that, if they say no they feel bad even though it’s fine and important to set boundaries. Maybe I’m being over sensitive but I know I wouldn’t like that sprung on me and I know I would never direct someone to my house without them knowing, feels shady and gives off weird vibes.
Ps love your channel guys!! Even when discussing very tough topics you both handle them with such care and you both always seem so wholesome and are forever bestie goals
definitely!
An ex did this to me. He said wanted to take me me this cute cafe he knew. After we left, it was late and I thought he was walking me back to the station, as I didn’t know the neighborhood. But suddenly we were in front of his house. We had only just started seeing each other at the time, but I was really attracted to him and wanted to keep seeing him, so I went in even though I wasn’t quite ready for ~that step~ of the relationship. He never asked me if I was comfortable going back to his place, or if I even wanted to. He just took me there. Looking back I see how inappropriate that was, especially after seeing this movie.
@Nichol Nunn perfectly explained.
At the very least, he was hoodwinking her. When out walking with someone, male or female, we usually go oh, this way is my place, unless you are super caught up in a conversation but then you don't say it the way he did.
@Luboman411 there's a subconscious conviction in many men that women don't really like sex, there's no such thing as enthusiastic consent, and manipulation is the best way to obtain sex. Dismantling rape culture is twofold: demonstrating what No means but also what Yes looks like so men can recognize it. Once a (good) man sees what comfortable, safe, enthusiastic consent from a woman looks like, that's what he should want every time. The trouble is so many men doubt that's even a thing.
Fun Fact: Emerald Fennell asked her father in law, who is a retired police officer, how long it takes to smother someone to death, and he told her two and a half minutes. That's precisely how long the smothering scene between Cassie and Al lasts for.
in any other movie youd see them suffocate and die in 3 seconds
(same with choking someone.)
This was weirdly one of my favourite parts of the film, simply because I appreciated the realism. It has always bothered me how films portray strangulation/smothering as something that can happen almost accidentally in how fast it is, because in reality it is an extremely intimate and intense way to take a life. It's a method you have to keep choosing to continue doing the entire time you're doing it.
@ToxicGinger If I recall it correctly, in Torn Curtain, Alfred Hitchcock portrayed a long, exhausting murder scene that goes on and on.
When questioned about that, he said that "in real life, murder is usually neither clean nor simple, and sometimes we have to be reminded of that."
@Tina Beana regardless, there is a good chance that resus measures taken that prioritise respiratory function can revive a smothered patient for the first 6 minutes. He made a choice not to attempt to revive her.
Hi guys! Love the video. But re: the notion that her sundresses, hair ribbons and general manner of dress were a manifestation of her having regressed into a mentality considered childish (if only by others in the film). i actually disagree, my perception was that it had more to do with cassie owning and embodying her femininity without it somehow being at odds with her fierce, justice-crusading mentality. sometimes we’re taught to abandon or shrink away from overt femininity, either because it doesnt align with the masculine-leaning “cool girl,” or because ultra feminine personas are typically villainized in film, it’s as though women need to counteract their femininity with masculine traits to make it more palatable to those around them. but in cassie’s case, being fucking furious doesn’t mean her presentation has to change to anything less feminine. sometimes in movies they use traditionally masculine behavior to telegraph that a women is REALLY angry, or ready for battle/confrontation, like showing women putting on war paint, huffing and puffing, or acting like men. but the movie subverts this by having cassie’s war paint be ribbons and sundresses, because it doesnt detract from, or even visually counteract, her fury.
You triggered a memory that was suppressed for more than a decade.
I love rock music, but at the same time I enjoy bright colours and cute clothes. When I wanted to go in a bright yellow outfit to my very first rock concert my boyfriend told me "jockingly" that he won't go with me because I want fit in the crowd in my clothes and everyone would be aggressive towards us. He pointed out that I would look like a fraud who doesn't give a shit about the music and only their because of her boyfriend. On one hand I was pissed at this rhetoric that I had to hide a part of my personality if I wanted to be taken seriously,.on the other hand - I bought it in and continued believing in this narrative for quite some time.
Thank you! This is exactly it. I hate the theory that she has regressed to childhood and needs to grow up. Being feminine isn't childish.
Agreed 100%
Exactly this! Thank you for putting my thoughts into words.
13:20 accurate as HELL. Whenever a guy would indicate sexual interest in me, Imediately wrote them off because I thought “that’s all they want.”
I promise it is! No man seriously interested would take the chance to make you uncomfortable.
I softly disagree with the conclusion that Cassie's appearance is solely visualized regression. IMO her painted nails are one of the MOST important attributes of the film. [SPOILERS:] From the start there is shot after shot where her hand is held next her face, fingers splayed, intentionally showcasing the distinctive nail polish. At the end her corpse is, visually, reduced to the image of a lifeless sex doll, with the cartoonish, red-lipstick, 'O' shaped mouth & everything. But when her body is disposed of the ONLY part of her body the viewer is allowed to see is her hand with her distinctive nail polish. It immediately forces the viewer to recall those preceding shots of her face with her hand next to it, reversing her objectification by forcing the viewer to recall her, not as inanimate, or as only a body, but as a personality, as a Person. I thght abt that nail polish for /weeks/ after seeing this movie, it's so genius and haunting.
It may also hint at her being identified and the men caught since it's such a distinctive feature of hers.
I also agree with you and I found it funny that it was the cineast to comment on that and not the therapist or the shrink. IMO the pastel colours and the feminine dresses was a way to showcast Cassie as still a beautiful female, without the sexual component. She wanted to still feel pretty without taking the risk of being objectified. Although I can see how a couple of midwesterners didn't get that, since american children are sexuallized from a very young age and it's even legal to marry children in many of those states.
When he gets confronted, instead of saying "I'm sorry," or "that was wrong, I should have done something" he says "you have to forgive me."
She says no because he expresses no guilt. He doesn't take responsibility. He doesn't attempt to make things right. He just demands to be forgiven.
One thing I noticed about the men in this movie is that they all believe they're victims despite the fact that none of them have been in a victim's position. When Cassie starts messing with the first guy, he starts backing away from her and gets visibly nervous as if he's being attacked. Ryan feels victimized for witnessing Nina's assault and defends himself and others by saying "we were kids" which is usually something that someone says when their innocence was taken from them, as if innocence was taken from him by watching the assault happen. And then of course the idea of an accusation being "guy's worst nightmare," as if he's been framed rather than held accountable. Even the lawyer, who feels remorseful for his actions, asks Cassie if she's going to hurt him and begs her to help him, as if he didn't benefit from the assault case. The second they are called out on their behavior, they panic and assume this perspective of "the circumstances were beyond my control."
I've noticed that a lot of people mistake being held accountable for "being attacked" or "ganged up on."
@Julie Tardos Despite the forgiveness, I think Cassie ultimately hurt the lawyer more by not following through with the hit. He gets to live in his guilt.
Good catch. I got the feeling that lawyer almost wanted her to hurt him, because he knew he deserved it.
I was sad about the ending, but as Alan said, it was a "right" choice. It's unrealistic she would come out alive after being surrounded by men who had raped before or just are all stronger than her. I liked the title of "Promising Young Woman" cause society always forget about her promise, her future, shadowed by the Promising Young Man
@x Miuna x At least, she had a back up plan. But you are right, she could have.
The while time she was in the bedroom I was thinking Cassie you better sedate him... No why didnt you sedate him! Its awful but most men have the upper hand on women by default and it unfortunately does make sense that in the end she would have to be a martyr to get the job done.
@Paula Stiles she did not plan on dying, but she did plan for it if you get what I mean. She tried to punish him, but was aware it most likely would not end well so she had a back up plan utilising that fact.
@Robin Chestek the thing is, the movie is about grief, more then it is about vengance either way and while sexual crimes often get brushed away, murder with clear proof is something the police has to go after
@Jennifer Andrade ^^
Consent is such an important thing to teach boys. I don’t believe it’s a concept that should be taught until their adolescence, but much earlier. I feel it becomes a more complex thing to discuss more in depth when they’re adolescence, but that mindset needs to be instilled early when they’re malleable and opened to common courtesy and how to treat others. Of course, it can be broad themes when they’re little and more contextualized and at depth when they’re reaching puberty. Emerald has crafted an important film that young men need to watch, as well as older to bring these things that have been deeply embedded in our culture and society to teach how not to treat women, as humans, not objects.
This is my new favorite episode. Watching Promising Young Woman felt like I was watching myself get the revenge I feel towards the teenage boy who molested me when I was 5 years old, and the man who raped me when I was 25 years old. When I was a child I told my parents I was molested, and who did it, my parents told their friends, and yet absolutely nothing was done. They even let me be alone with this teenager, let me spend multiple nights alone with him. When I was raped at 25 I filed a police report, sat in a car with a detective while he listened to me ask this rapist if we had any sexual contact because I was so drunk I couldn’t remember. Went to the hospital for a rape test. There wasn’t enough evidence. Nothing happened to this man either. I did all the right things, within my capacity, to right the situation and hold them accountable. So watching this film is cathartic, and I definitely seriously consider “Would it be worth it, to physically harm these men now? Or ruin their lives?” The answer is alway no, it’s not realistic, and it’s wrong…but it is still really, really, really difficult to think “that would be wrong.”
This movie made an impact on me so hard that I cried of fear afterwards. I was enchanted by Bo Burnham's character (as it was written to be) and the shock of discovering that he was there and didn't do anything made me fear every single man on earth. As they said in the beggining of the video: one thing is to know things and one thing is to feel things, and this movie made me feel things.
On a side note, the fact that they repeat the boy firends roles in each event was a great decision of the filmakers. There is the one who commits the crime itself (the r*pist and murderer), the ones that support/help the criminal (all his friends on the stag party) and the one that choose to do nothing (Bo Burnham's character had the chance to tell the police where she was, but chose to do nothing just like he did with Nina).
It's about bloody time a movie line this was made. Secondary trauma can affect so many in ways we cannot even fathom. No means no, full stop. No questions asked, no quarter given.
When I was 16-18 I had an online fling with a guy. I liked him and he liked me, but we lived far away from each other and I didn't want an online relationship. There were points in our fling where I was teatering between giving it a go or not, but I never went full in. One day he told me he had gotten lucky with a girl from a party. I asked for details and he said she initially said no to anal, but went along with it after a bit of convincing. I immediately said that he had no right pushing her to do anything she wasn't comfortable with, but he was convinced he had done nothing wrong. After that day I made up my mind to never give him a shot. Women are not there for a man's pleasure. No is an answer and you should accept it even if you don't want to.
Another detail in this movie is that everyone who had a hand in what happened to Nina keeps excusing what they did by saying "we were kids", but they were in their first or second year of med school, so they would have been 22-24 at the time this happened. Definitely old enough to know better.
@Tina Perez I agree. I was more making a comment on how they're trying to excuse it by saying they were kids who didn't know what they were doing. But I agree, kids at any age should know it's wrong. There's a case I learned of where a group of girls attacked, assaulted, and murdered another girl because 2 of them didn't like her. The other 2 in the group knew it was wrong, but they didn't say anything and let it happen. Shanda (the victim) was younger than the girls who attacked her and smaller. They could have stopped at any time and didn't. It's disgusting. The movie reminds me of that case a lot.
Dr Marks was right on w that- so glad she was part of this conversation. Felt like she kept them in perspective, reminding them of the hard truth of being a woman. That it's not just "Cassie has issues" but that there's a problem w the society
But here's something else - HOW is THAT okay if done as kids anyway?!
I mean who's going around saying "oh little Johnny or Suzie gang raped and or murdered the neighbor kid - but what can you do - that's just kids will be kids!" And... "boys will be boys"?!
As if this is shoplifting a pack of gum from the grocery store checkout aisle when you're 5 (or older, but you get my point). THAT'S something "kids do" (and not all kids but some kids and also, that shouldn't be excused away either and should be properly addressed and corrected).
@Tiana Nesbitt You can be tried as as adult when your 18 and sometimes even younger than that. Also you only have to be 17 to join the military and 18 if you don't want a guardians permission. So your logic is off.
@Sarah Leandra Sutton no need to thank me- it was something that immediately popped into my head, too.
Also in the scene with Nina’s mom and she apologizes for not being with her that night she blames herself for a part in her best friends death. There are so many layers to her it’s insanely well done
I like how Alan was like I’m gonna sit down and watch this with all my boys when they’re old enough CUZ THAT IS EXACTLY EXACTLY WHAT I SAID TOO after watching the movie for the first time 👏👏👏
Remember all my fellow men: there is a difference between a "nice guy" and a good man. Because the good man is the one who sees the nice guy try to cut the drunk girl from the herd at the nightclub, gets them to back off, and calls over a waitress to and provides cab fair (if you have money...20 bucks for a cab feels alot better than getting a 20 dollar beer in a crappy nightclub in any event).
And then doesn't go online to tout what a nice guy they are, or complain "but I didn't even get a thank you kiss!" I've seen that on social media 🙄. Do it because it's the right thing to do, not to expect a favor in return or the clout of telling others about your good deeds.
This entire film had me so entranced I didn’t cry at all - though each scene was gut wrenching and terribly painful - until Ryan gets the text message. The moment I heard the ring I just started sobbing, I couldn’t even read what it said, I had to go back and pause it because I was sobbing so much because I knew it was her and then to read it was signed her and Nina… just full on sobbing. But up to that point I was so fixated I couldn’t cry. That’s a great script and performance.
He was one of my best friends. I trusted that guy with my life. He was sweet, funny, charming... He drove me to the hospital when I needed medical attention, he slept in my roommates bed after she moved out and I was in the room. I even had a crush on him my freshmen year of college. And then I found out who he really was... Just like Ryan.
Casting is the most important component in this film. They cast a lot of men known for their comedic work, line Bo Burnham and Chris Lowell, that people generally like as the “Nice Guys.” They cast Allison Brie & Connie Britton, two generally well-liked women, one well-known for comedic work, as the women who end up being part of the problem. Then they cast Alfred Molina as the lawyer. One of Molina’s best known roles is that of a literal supervillain, Doc Ock. They cast Molina, someone people may typically associate with villainy, as the one man who shows any kind of remorse and humanity. Every single casting choice in this film was done with purpose to illustrate that you can never judge a book by its cover.
@Thorn Dela You can see her pull away, and even when his face is in his hands crying, she's cried, says she forgives him, she doesn't shift closer. She stays distant and uncomfortable. Even if she has forgiven him, he remains a threat.
It was also useful to have Molina because even when large men are being sincere, big movements and grabbing hands and knees still make you think "I'm about to be murdered right now. Do I try to run or placate him?"
Yes, the casting was perfectly done to subvert expectations, especially subvert the tropes you see in a lot of shows. One that comes to mind is shows like The Big Bang Theory. Those guys are typically depicted as nerdy, “nice”, harmless guys. Because they’re “harmless” geeks, their actions are played for laughs, but when you really look at some of their actions and comments (especially Howard’s, how he sexually objectifies women, or the others’ actions that are a little more discreetly objectifying/entitled) it’s really not harmless. So it shows these “nice” guys for the actual predators that they can be.
The casting is brilliant.
I only realised recently that I was SA’d at least three times as a child, once when I was five and twice at seven; probably more when you count after I hit puberty.
I was never properly taught consent (not sure if my exes were or they didn’t care) and it’s only now that I am questioning every experience I ever had and asking myself the questions: “did I want that?”, “did I say yes or did I just not say no?”
What makes it worse is that almost all my experiences were were fellow children and that I don’t know how many of my classmates were involved in one of them, I estimate at least five boys my age.
@RED 🤗
i had the exact same experience omfg
@Mariam Megrelidze Thanks, still doesn’t feel real
my heart goes out to you. i really hope you are doing well now, i also hope you will acknowledge everything that has happenned to you and you will get help. God bless you
This video was done in the most respectful fashion. I just found out I’m pregnant with a boy and seeing you two talk made me feel a little better that there are good men in this world ♥️
I once had a man literally use the phrase "boys will be boys" as an excuse for his behavior when he tried to get me drunk and have sex with me. I was 18 and he was around 30.
I hyperfixated on this movie SO bad when it came out - I watched it 12 times within 2 weeks once! I’ve watched and read everything online I can find about it and talked about it ad nauseam with my therapist, yet you three have given me new understandings of a few scenes! The vengeance of this movie was so cathartic for me, as so many parts of the plot very closely mirror my own life. Thank you for covering such an intense and ugly topic with all the care, sincerity, and respect it deserves!
Ok, personnal moment: when I was 15, I've been gang raped by guys of my high school, and I started to remember everything 6 years later. It took me a very long and awful time to tell my family, especially my perents, because I was afraid to destroy their world, or that they would stop talking to me, or call me a liar. Fortunatelly, I was wrong. My family is extremely supportive to me. Like many persons in my situation, I had (and still have) ideas of revenge. And it even used to be an obsession. But my memory is damaged, and I don't remember the names and faces of the rapists. My psy proposed me to practise hypnosis, it can be very efficient to unblock some memories, but after a while, I refused. Precisely because I wanted revenge. I imagined myself behind a glass, in jail, talking to my parents and sister, hearing their lives going on, but without me. I imagined their faces and what they would feel when i'd be declared guilty and sent to prison. And this vision made me cry so hard. And also, if I confuse my memories, if I think that a guy was one of the rapists when really, I just mixed it up, and he was innocent...I'd rather let culprits run free than hurting an innocent. That's the decision I took, and I know it was the good one: I have to protect my family, and sometimes, you have to protect them from yourself. But it also have consequences: I know that I will never have justice, though like every human being, I deserve it. I'm gonna live with the idea that these rapists are gonna stay free, and that my fantasies of bloody vengeance will stay a dream. And most of all, I sometimes feel like a coward, even a partner in crime: because I don't wanna remember who they are, maybe they're gonna do it again, to other girls, maybe they already did. And sometimes I feel so bad about it that I can't even look at myself in a mirror, because I sacrificed other girls for my family's sake, and my own mental health. I wish I can be a badass punisher, a vigilante, an avenger, an Arya Stark with her list of despicable victims in the making, walking the streets to make justice, to make sure that they will never rape, hurt, destroy again and to relieve myself from the burden of injustice, but I chose not to be. And it's very, very hard. I''m proud of who and what I am, of the way I walked, and what I chose to become, but I wish I could have succumbed to my own dark side. "The better revenge is a good life", I know it, but once in a while, I need movies like this one to make me believe that others fight for girls like me.
Your first and foremost duty is to yourself. Is going to the police will hurt you more than not going, don't. It's not selfishness - it's self preservation. You're a survivor, and no one in their right mind would expect you to be a hero.
I didn't tell my family or the police about my rape. I don't know if that guy ever hurt someone else... He was a player, so it's not impossible. You know the type, entitled "you owe me sex" kinda person. I didn't go to the police because it was a different country and I didn't fully grasp what really happened after I was abroad. I didn't tell my parents because I knew that would mean them obsessing about me going out and retraumatizing me over and over again (I was an adult but still living with them). Was it the right decision? I have no idea. Would me going to the police save anyone? Maybe. But I needed to heal, and I decided that was the right way for me.
Sending you virtual hugs ❤️
@Clarisa Thank you, and I feel sorry for you too. I think many people believe that the worst part of a rape is the act itself (and for some victims, it is), but for me and many of the friends that lived the same thing, the worst part is to live with the consequences, and especially the feeling of injustice that will never be fixed. I hope you'll get better!
Im really sorry that happened and you didnt deserve that and I get exactly what you mean bc I went thru (even now still) that thought process of my assaulters and I get so frustrated sometimes with myself bc of it
My first boyfriend witnessed the gang rape of our friend at 15. She passed out drug at a party. He was a huge athlete already…. Later won a football scholarship. He tried to stop the rape, and was beaten up and thrown out of the house, had to hide in the woods, and sneak home. ( The property was way out of town, isolated. Before cell phones). He was unable to have sex. He talked about how sex was horrible for women, it involved damaging them…. He couldn't…. hurt them that way. Secondary trauma can be horrible, men CAN suffer
Ok but what's more important is the girl. Thats horrific how's she doing and were the men involved punished
Yeah, seeing that as a 15-year-old boy and then being beaten up and thrown out sounds hellish. Very traumatizing at such a young age, when you don't even know what sex is. I do wonder what happened to the girl. Did he know her at all? Was she a complete stranger whose identity was totally unknown to him? It sounds like if he was willing to be beaten up trying to stop this at 15 years old, he would've done something about it with the police if he'd simply known who she was. It takes a lot of guts for a 15-year-old boy to stand up like that against relentless, powerful peer pressure from the other guys...
@Essy is just reacting she left due to unusual circumstances
what happened to the girl afterwards?
I think I read somewhere that the author of the Girl With The Dragon Tattoo series had a similar experience. Same thing, witnessed a gang rape at a party as a teenager. He either was unable to stop it or he was too afraid and did nothing; I can't remember which. He was so tortured by the experience and racked with guilt that it is supposedly what inspired him to create this novel series. He named the heroine after the girl at the party.
I've seen this movie 3x and every time it rips my heart out of my chest! It's an important film that gets to the core of the truth that society refuses to talk about & I'm extremely grateful for that. A lot of nuance was placed into this film & as difficult as it is to watch its necessary
I hope to see more like it in the future
@UnvoicedApollo agreed I think it's because it made people uncomfortable & confront the reality of it all Plus I'm pretty sure the pandemic really ramped up soon after this movie was released
I remember watching this and I think I was the only person in the theater. It's too bad this doesn't get enough attention
The cutesy hair, clothes, and nails are also a manipulation tactic for her target male demographic. They are more likely to take advantage of someone who appears to be the sweet innocent attractive young woman. So when she is in her batman persona it is like a costume for what she is trying to achieve. It makes her playing dumb or drunk more believable, and makes her turn around into a sober confident woman more shocking to them. The scene where he directed them to his apartment too made my stomach sink. This whole movie is brilliant and the attention to detail is out of this world with just how multilayered everything is.
I think also it’s meant to show how she’s still trapped in the time of her trauma. Because she’s constantly reliving the event, she feels permanently like she’s in her late-teens or early-twenties, an age where you’re still quite childish and naive
When I saw the trailer for this movie, I was so excited to see it because it took a huge issue and made it an important topic. This movie didn’t disappoint because even I initially thought it was going to be a slasher but just the psychological warfare she was playing was even better.
I also liked how she flipped the same arguments back at them, especially the Dean’s. Not many people know or understand that women also doesn’t always believe other women and also blame them for their own assault, too. Not just men.
My 2 closest female friends and I have been SA’d, and one of which was also told by a female friend that it was her fault for being drunk, which was ironic because she was also known for drinking. She also wasn’t believed or was blamed when she told people.
I didn’t tell people until years passed because I was afraid of the very same things the movie draws attention to and what another commenter mentioned. Either I won’t be believed, I’ll be blamed, or I should just forgive him because it makes everyone else uncomfortable.
I like the costume choice for Cassie. She dresses very child like and puts her hair in ribbons and stuff to signify the fact that she’s mentally stunned. She was so traumatised by her friends suicide and the reason why. Like the therapist said she has second hand trauma. She stayed in the mental age of 22-24 even though she was probably 30 something.
Several years ago when I returned to my dorm from a convention,. My dorm room was distoryed. The mattress blow up, the wooden furniture were in peaces and the window was procken. I went to my neighbor to ask what happened. She admitted that she hear screaming and didn't call the police. She didn't call the police because my roommate invited a boy over pass curfew. When I responded with anger, she called RA for help. RA told me that my roommate asked for it. Later I finally found out that my foommate was at the hopital with the police. She never invited the boy over, he broke in from the window. Weeks later the school was sending lawyers at her to talk her into dropping the charges on her abuser. The school only cared about their reputation. We transferred to another school. I learned it's not about being believedble. It's about the convinance of the story
Yeah, not all guys are heores, even the ones who like to pretend so by choosing a "heroic" career...
My 22 y-o cousin and her 2 friends got drugged at a night club the other night (someone must have put something in their drinks because they only had one), as they felt dizzy and sick, they stayed together and exited the club to call an ambulance. Not only the ambulance took 20 minutes to get there, but they were insulted by the the first responders for being "irresponsible" and "reckless", saying it was their fault what happended and they shouldn't have been drinking in the first place... They didn't believe it was the result of drugs, they thought the girls were just drunk despite my cousin repeating over and over that they only had one drink.
The drug was only confirmed after bloodtests at the hospital, and even then, the girls had to insist to get tested bc the doctors didn't believe them either... So no, not all heroes...
...
I'm glad they stuck together and demanded their rights etc. I can't tell you how unsurprised I am I that it happened at all or the following events and I cannot tell you nor describe how angry and sick that makes me.
This shit is so insidious. I was in the ambulance with my ex for suicide attempts and the EMT kept lecturing him about sucking it up, demanding he talk about his life so the EMT could point out how much worse others have it and you don't see them complaining or hurting themselves. It was outrageous! I screamed at them
Jesus. What a messed up story. Thank God they were able to not only stick together but not black out AND advocate for themselves. The sure were surrounded by assholes. 😮
We took my daughter to the hospital because she had stomach cramps and could barely stand. My husband was supporting her through the door and the security guard who has ZERO medical training decided she had alcohol poisoning, I never corrected her because it got her seen faster, but people judge what they see and that is all they care to do.
I have watched reviews of this movie but I don’t feel as though I could watch it on its own so I appreciate this. It’s a neccesary movie. I really love that it exists.
I'm so happy you guys covered this. I swear this movie was everywhere for a week and then was wiped off the face of the planet. I've been looking for the name of this for ages. Actually had me sobbing when I first watched it.
As a victim of long lasting childhood sexual abuse, this movie spoke to me on a level that no other film, or even therapist ever has. It made me realize that moving on is a choice that I have to make, and if I leave it up to other people, they’re just gonna keep taking advantage of that pain. You have to be able to stand tall on your own and make the decision that’s best for you, you can’t rely on others to become better people for you, because it’ll never happen. My abuse lasted from age 3-10, I am now 19 years old and still very much affected by my trauma. It’s very disappointing how many people think it’s easy to just “move on” and “get over it” when it comes to things like sexual abuse.
In truth, you never really heal from that kind of trauma. The scars fade but they never really heal. You’ll have to live with some aspect of it for the rest of your life, but with time, you can get to a point where you’re living, not just surviving but living; and you’re not being held down by the pain anymore.
Thank you for this episode, it really was enlightening and encouraging, rock on you guys 🥰
Sending you light and love 💜
The last scene when she confronts the guy who SA'd her friend literally gave me chills it was a bittersweet finale but im glad there was a little justice
It's an interesting take that of the groom rejecting her because now he got his sh*t together, I read it as he probably didn't dare because she was sober. All those men immediately lost interest as soon as they saw she was alert and sober. However, your take is also logical and more infuriating.
I love/hate this movie.
@snowangelnc And, of course, even being careless with cheap rental items is the attitude of someone who doesn't care about other people. "So what if this has a purpose unconnected to me? It's served its purpose to me and it's out of my life now."
@snowangelnc And like Bo Burnham's character, he didn't changed or got better. He just stopped acting that way. But the ending shows that he is the same POS as ever.
@snowangelnc I see your point. All this makes me angry and sad.
I took it to mean that he'd had his fill, and now that he'd gotten himself a great career and a satisfying relationship and all that, he felt like it was time to toss that behavior aside like a worn out piece of clothing and take what he sees as his rightful place on the moral high ground. He wants to be the good, honorable, perfect gentleman, and that's what he fully intends to be; just as soon as he's finished having his fun.
That's another thing about seeing people as objects. He's not seeing what he's doing to these women as being all that different than somebody being careless with cheap rental items and careful with something they want to buy.
One thing I love about this channel is not only do we learn therapy and get more insight into movies but we also get movie recommendations. I have seen a lot of movies just because CinemaTherapy talked about them.
@Cinema Therapy 9:40 and you can see the red flags at the begining when he's still trying to ask her out even when she's already said no. And when she showed him the video, near the end of that scene, he said "and then we both won't be doctors, you fcking failure" which mean he never saw her as his equal and look down on her
Mine is the opposite. I couldn’t watch this movie due to triggers but love the social context and writing, so this channel provides a barrier for me to know more about it and see clips from the movie.
👆👆Thanks for the order i just got my product from him 🤗🤩..
:.
The ACCUSED of the 2020s.
That's awesome :)
One thing I loved about this movie is the contrast in the casting, the "evil" people here are casted to be actors who are known to play passive and kind roles vs the the "good" people here are usually the actors playing evil roles, i think this strengthens the point that there's not one particular look about a dangerous person and that it could be anyone.
I was SA'ed some 19 years ago by a man. I'm 23 now. It STILL affects how I subconsciously and consciously interact with men. I've had to fight tooth and nail to move on. I've been lucky enough to get therapy so it's gotten better but more people need to understand that assault *stays with you*
I also loved Lavern Cox in this movie as Cassy's work BFF. Cassy posthumously giving Lavern's character her BFF necklace as a metaphor for passing on/shared societal trauma, as a result of misogyny [sort of a kin to generational trauma i think?] I think would make for a great discussion for a CT episode!
I was r-ped by an ex boyfriend 2-3 yrs ago, we were around 15-17 age, I wasn't the best in my mental state during our relationship but I tried my hardest to keep things balanced between us. Its the feeling that I don't want to remember, but at the time same time, I feel like it was just yesterday. I was blaming myself for not seeing the wrong, wishing I could've done something better. It happened at school, got caught by teachers, was set to the office the other day and I saw him crying and said that he's gonna get beat up by his dad if he knew. during that moment, I was confused, in my mind, I was asking to why he's crying, aren't I the one who's supposed to be more afraid..? I was naive, I knew that I said NO, several times until I let out a forced "Yes".
Now, Im scared of being in a relationship again. Its just that I wish I could've done something.. Will I ever recover.. Will I ever forgive him..? No.
Up until now, I haven't told the truth even to my parent, I just felt that no one would ever believe me if I said anything.
I really hope that you can for the most part recover and hopefully live a good life. You don’t have to forgive him or even forget what happened so don’t ever feel forced to. Just want to say that you should never blame yourself for what happened and also not blame yourself for the lasting damage that was done to you.
Sorry if this came out of nowhere but I just wanted to say it just in case it could help you. Even just a little.
What we didn't see at the end, and probably may have happened after Cassie's notes she sent out to the world post mortem and with her attackers future trial: this would hit the media like fire. People would be talking about her, her friend, the attackers, the trial for such a long time. Sometimes we need to find a dialogue to talk about the ugly thing that needs to change.
I loved how someone mentioned somewhere how extremely powerful was casting choice to cast good guys like actors who are either nice in real life or play nice guys on screen to act like villains so we basically are thrown off by how they are a hidden threat, makes you see that it is everywhere and not only "sketchy" guys can be a problem
I also want to add the detail that Cassies dad, probably the nicest man in the movie, and the former lawyer, the only one on her list who doesn't excuse his actions, deeply regrets them and would have accepted every punishment, are both played by two actors who are popular for their villainous/antagonistic roles. Its a nice twist, and it drives the point home that its not written by someone who simply hates men.
@AS Wow, I've never heard that before. But it rings true. It's sad though.
@Violet Silver exactly. One analogy I heard was that women need to treat men like guns. You never know which ones are loaded so you treat them all like they are.
@Violet Silver exactly this, many gus take it as an "all guys" accusation, while it really is not, the terrible thing is, that one can never tell. It is not everyone, but it could be anyone
"I don't think the movie is wrong and it makes me so angry" is the best sum up of my reaction to this piece of art 💔
This has been a pleasant surprise. Dr. Tracy Mark’s videos had helped me a whole lot when i was in my darkest days. Thank you so much for inviting her, Cinema Therapy!
This film states one and only truth about rape. Rape is not empowering, it's destroying, devastating and life-shattering.
I watched this movie relatively shortly after I started therapy to process my own history of assault. I was kinda worried that it would trigger me negatively, but it didn't. It created conversations. As for the ending, I watched an interview with the director. She said "it ended the way it needed to end" in that it's not a perfectly tied bow of a revenge story ending.
This movie gripped me to my core when I saw it in theatres. People sitting next to me had a pile of snacks and at the end of the movie realized they hadn't eaten any of them. I think that says a lot.
I have PTSD from multiple abuses (sexual, physical, verbal, emotional) as a child. Hearing Jono say things about it being ok to still feel the pain of past abuses, that it staying with you doesn't make you weak...that always makes me cry. I feel those words in my soul. So many people are of the, 'Just forget about it' frame of mind. You never do. Thanks for understanding, Jono.
The way I think of it is that you can heal from the trauma side of things, but I don't think most people could ever get to a point of not having negative feelings about it, because even just hearing that you've been abused (let alone in multiple ways) is upsetting. If I can feel upset about others going through that, I don't think it's realistic to not extend that same emotional reaction for myself. One can have an incredibly fulfilling and healthy life but still have things that make them cry at night. It's important.
One of the most valuable things that you guys touched on is how the abuser was just a regular guy. Always seeing abusers represented as shallow villains in media made me think I wasnt allowed to hate my abusers or hold their actions against them because they were much more similar to this guy, privileged, ignorant, entitled and doing what they think is normal. It was refreshing for me to see an abuser represented this way, truer to the nuances of life
Thank you for airing this episode. I'm a Sex Assault survivor. It happened to me 10 years ago and, even though I went to therapy 9 years ago, I have had moments where I have a hars time moving on with my romantic life. You guys gave some good points that I can talk and think about and I will also check out the resources given. Once again, I applaud you for tackling a topic and a film that many shy away from.
This movie is truly a lot to handle for anyone with first-hand trauma and secondary trauma, because it speaks the truth about our society. Throughout the film, I noticed that everyone who isn't a victim... including the women who never experienced trauma themselves... tells the main character to forget what had happened and move on as if it never had happened. That is such a toxic mindset. Trauma is there and it needs to be acknowledged before any healing can occur, but how can you heal when everyone around you says forget it and move on. 😰💀
BTW, I am loving these videos about teaching boys healthy masculinity and teaching them to be humane humans. 😎👍🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
PS: Alan and Jon being teary eyed shows how much compassion and love they have with humanity. You can tell they truly care about the world and all within it. And boys need to see that and see that it is okay.
When I first watched this movie, I immediately went back and watched the entire thing again. I loved it, and think it’s a very important film. But I think my favourite part was when she stares down the guys catcalling her…I feel like that part of the movie gave me something.
@Dr Stone What do you mean?
I remember thinking at the end of the movie "why did she go to the house? And put herself in the situation! She knew she could get hurt." before realizing that's exactly the point this movie is getting at.
As someone who has dealt with sexual assault, please don’t let other people down play it for you. It is a big deal to have someone lay a hand on you without permission and you can talk about it and confront someone. It doesn’t matter if it ruins the party, the person who doesn’t hear the word no ruins the party.
This feels like it is SUCH a pernicious and widespread issue in our societies!!😣 If you complain about sexist treatment at work, then you're the problem employee... If you call people out on douchey 'humour', then you "can't take a joke"... If you campaign for equal treatment then you're an 'SJW' or 'feminazi'... If you criticise relatives for doing creepy stuff, then you must be overreacting. People are far to quick to blame survivors or turn on whistle-blower, rather than holding perpetrators to account - esp. if the latter are in any sort of position of power.
Problematic behaviours are far too often downplayed by people who should know better, just because they don't want to rock the boat. Or even more awfully, perhaps they don't feel safe themselves to speak up...? As a collective, I believe we can all do way better - and we need to, if we want this constant damage to stop.
Kinda realised I have secondary trauma from hearing about the heartbreaks and abuse/ helping my friends who went through all of it and it has made a huge impact on my life.
I hadn't seen this movie but listening to a critic go over this movie had me in tears shaking. It took me some time to watch you guys go over this. I needed to be a more positive and stronger state of being but I'm so proud you guys for going over this movie with such an amazing psychiatrist.
Thank you so much for this. I am a psychologist, and for almost 40 years, I have counselled women who have been sexually assaulted and raped as girls and/or as adult women. For 15 years now, I am also cooperating with perpetrator programmes. So I can only agree with everything you have said.
You all were so close and I loved that you called her Batman but the pastel colors and cute hair is her femininity weaponized. She puts up a front for every part of her life to show people what they want to see. There’s a lot on this in interviews with Fennell. You’re not wrong and there are no wrong interpretations but I felt it important to mention
What sticks out is that of all the excuses, only the lawyer ever says sorry. None of them are genuinely guilty about what they did, they panic and start making excuses and demanding forgiveness and compassion whenever it negatively impacts them, but they don't spare an ounce of that compassion for the people they hurt.
The point about how it would be easier if he were perpetual predator is just what I find so chilling about dating - these guys will go on to have normal lives and how do you know what you're dating, as a woman? What you're getting married to? They may not even think what they did was wrong, but still know to hide it. Ugh. This movie is so disturbing the more time I spend with it.
@Viktoria Nemeth I’m so sorry, I just saw this two months later! Yeah, it’s been hard to learn, but I can finally understand that what he did is 100% on him. I’m still learning, but I’ve done a lot of healing, even in the months since I left that comment ❤️
Right! The guy who assaulted me is now married and has two young daughters. She is constantly raving on social media about what a wonderful partner and father he is. God help them. I hope they never get a taste of who he really is, but I know better. He never put in the necessary work to truly change. If he had, I would have at least received an apology by now.
@Eileen Snow Mine is also married now, with kids and everything. One thing I learned in therapy though is that we're never responsible for other people's actions. Like an another commenter already stated, it's unlikely that she knows the version of him that you knew. We can only hope that he became a better person towards his spouse. I hope you're okay
@Violet Silver Oof that hit me hard. My sister worked with the guy and strongly disapproved when she found out I was seeing him… Yeah, I definitely see your point. Thank you again. It’s a tough pill to swallow, but it’s true xx
this movie means a lot to me because for a long while I was Cassie (minus the revenge part LOL) and i personally have never seen secondary trauma portrayed this way. I relate to her so deeply and i think this film was just masterfully done, ESPECIALLY the ending. If she has survived it would have felt amazing, but it wouldnt have been real. That being said, this film is hella triggering to me. Even watching this video had me sobbing LOL, but I also just want to say that seeing you all really understand and explain what the message was felt validating in a way . It's also really nice to hear MEN understanding and really getting this film and it's something i think i needed to see
I have worked in the advocacy world in the area for close to 15 years now. Thank you for taking on some more serious movies like this.
Agreed. Such an important film.
I wouldn't want any of my friends to be in danger in any way. That said, I found it very touching how much Carey Mulligan's character cares about her friend. I've found in the aftermath of assault, friends are more likely to drift away rather than become supportive. Again, this movie shows a very extreme example of support. But wow to have a friend who cares about you that much 🤯