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Could you please speak on 'Do revenge' on Netflix? I found their characters interesting and it felt equally scary that I've actually met teenagers like that
Thank you for reviewing the movie I didn't know I needed reviewed by you two. This movie was a big part of my teenage years and it is SO CATHARTIC to hear you break this down.
I love when Jim Carrey takes these dramatic roles. He's a blast to watch in his regular comedic films, but his performances in movies like The Truman Show and this one show that he can also convey great sadness and emotional depth in his characters.
I agree. Jim Carrey is a very deep man whose comedy is only a fraction of his talent (although he's better at that than most comedians). I love the Truman Show, it's one of my favourite movies of all time. Watch Jim and Andy: The Great Beyond for Jim's extremely insightful realisations about the nature of the self.
Kidding kidding kidding Kidding Kidding kiDDING kIDDING KIDDING! Same director and actor as this film! though, lacking the brilliant and ever underappreciated Charlie Kaufman, the writer of this film. Still, depressingly wholesomely complete as a work, in 2 seasons.
A cool little detail is also on the tapes Joel says that Clem wasn’t well-educated and he can’t talk about books with her but in his memories you see her reading a book a couple of times and she works LITERALLY at a book store, which just highlights that he wasn’t really opening him up to talking to her and wasn’t really seeing her past his preconceived version of her
This movie always makes me think of the quote: "The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley
Something I didn't pick up on until I was much older: Joel is incredibly passive aggressive. He's judgemental toward Clementine throughout the memories he ends up erasing, and he continually baits her into reacting by very softly and quietly dropping comments he knows will hurt her deeply (the remark about her not being ready for kids, the jab about her "constantly talking") and then she takes the bait and he walks away while she reacts and, boom, we have a narrative about her being "volatile and reactive." But he constantly needles her. It isn't until they meet post-Lacuna that he's able to just accept her, and I think that's a big part of the significance of the final scene where he shrugs and says "okay." And, for her part, when she heard the jab in the tape (about her sleeping with people to get them to like her) she just quietly removed herself instead of rising to the bait of his hurtful comment. So, yes, growth! But I just wanted to throw that in as well -- it's a big dynamic of their relationship that's very subtle.
@Linda G. I agree with you that a crowded street wasn't the place to have the discussion and so did Joel which is why he said so once Clementine foolishly initiated it.
@C Rose No, it's better to wait until they are not in the middle of a crowded street or marketplace or wherever they were so they can have an honest, important discussion about having children & Joel can tell her his reservations about having children with her, and give her time and space to react to that. Instead he made a snide comment in a crowded place, walked away from her, and told her that he didn't want to talk about it (therefore cutting her off & making her even more angry and frustrated) when she reacted to the very hurtful thing he said. None of this is rocket science, these are basic communication and relationship skills, I'm sorry you are having such a hard time understanding.
@C Rose A smirk is a facial expression. Bemused is an emotion (which is another word for "a feeling") a person might be indicating with a smirk. You can smirk smugly, you can smirk slyly, you can smirk defiantly, you can smirk triumphantly. You cannot "bemused" with your face but you can smirk. Does that make sense? Does that help? But nice try, I guess.
The thing to keep in mind about her being so defensive is that is what Joel remembers the clearest, fresh with rage and hurt and pain out of the break up. And then the deeper he goes, he remembers the softer, kinder bits of her. It’s more about his perception of her than of her actual objective character growth…
I love how Clementine's hair colour corresponds with her relationship with Joel in terms of seasons. When they first meet, it's green, the colour of thawing, growth and springtime. It's red during their Summer of Love, their most passionate stage, and orange, an autumnal colour, when things start to "Fall" apart between them. In the present day, when they're broken up, it's blue to illustrate the freezing feelings and emotions, common with Winter.
@Loriana Banana I was/still am the same way pretty much since I was a preteen. (Am 39 now) As a 10 year old my family moved to a new town and I started a new school an endured a lot of traumatic confusing events and on top of that I was being bullied by my own 5th grade teacher who even managed to turn most of the class against me. I was completely ostracized and lonely. Once 5th grade ended I knew I'd be starting middle school and would have to face the same classmates again. I wanted to shake my old image, I was shy, anxious, depressed so didn't know how to be outgoing. I had long black hair so I bleached it, (it came out bright orange ) and i cut it into a bob cut. When school started again every one was so shocked by my appearance that my 11 year old mind thought i could change who I was by drastically changing my hair and the other kids would no longer think of me as "the loser nobody liked in 5th grade " I was still having problems though and changed my hair constantly throughout 6th, 7th, 8th grade, etc bleaching it blonde one week then blue the next then hot pink etc..Of course by 13 my hair was fried, so it was always in a choppy bob cut. I also started with body piercings at 12, my mom was lenient about stuff like that and the more hurt I was emotionally the more I'd get. This continued into H.S then my 20s, and early 30s I always wanted long hair again but it was impossible with the way I treated it. Then after getting my life together, meeting my husband, having a child i started treating myself better, still bleach my hair blonde but only the roots. Now my hair has been long and healthy for a number of years now, I always jokingly say my hairs condition has been a metaphor for how my life is going, but its actually pretty true:) I'm glad you were able to find happiness, both you and your hair, lol xo
I burst out laughing in a way where I actually related to someone over something extremely specific. I wanted to get married when I was about 5 too, I told my grandmother one night. Here I am nearly 30 watching Cinema Therapy about a movie I've watched over a dozen times still unmarried, but one day. Gotta heal up like Jonathan said at 18:11 and then we get the happy ending.
Everything Joel went through as his memories were being erased, Clementine went through as well. I would have loved to see those same memories from her perspective. And I like to think she regretted her decision as well and that's why and how they found each other again.
It's implied that she went through a similar experience he did and was drawn to Montauk. Even though she can't remember specific events, just like Joel, just like Mary, there is still an impression left. It's why Joel is comfortable with being alone with her. Why Clementine feels unnerved and anxious when Patrick is giving her gifts Joel gave her. Why Mary still kisses her boss, having no memory of their affair or any of the actual events that made her fall in love with him.
Honestly same. I’ve never heard someone articulate it the way Jonathan did. Another reason why I’m so grateful I found Cinema Therapy, because these guys have helped me put things into words I couldn’t have put into words before
One thing I realized about Joel at the end when he was saying "Wait" was that some people need time to process, they need to process their thoughts, their feelings, and figure out what they want to do. I mean, I feel that myself. When a person like this meets a person like Clemintine who is just "this is what I have, this is who I am right now, it might change, but this is now", somebody who is just speaking every thought all the time, the Processor never gets a chance to process. They have to just keep storing the info the Informer is giving them until stuff just disappears because they never got a chance to process it. This whole movie is about Joel finally processing what Cleminitine said to him for all those years.
Me and my husband, exactly. I am super self-aware, love analyzing and dissecting, love discussing my analysis. So when I am faced with a situation or a concept, my brain highlights certain things, I reflect on what I feel about that, why I feel that way, and if my feelings are rational, and then I verbalize it. So when I'm talking to my husband, I'll present a concept/situation, then I'm wait for him to come back with his reaction, and he's like " . . . I don't have one yet." It's certainly a process to figure that out and to adjust to make room for it.
the issue is that most people dont want to wait unless absolutelly need to. For me i have a speech impairment so sometimes im not understood so its like "Yea yea" just to keep going instead of actually understanding me I sometimes cant be understood even on 10 times of repeating then even i get tired of it.
I remember Clementine was crying after she erased her memory and couldn't understand why she was upset. Actually, she was experiencing grief, but the real object that she lost was not there anymore. So why she still was in pain? I thought that was a robust idea of how our emotions and brains worked in real.
this is one of my absolute favorite relationship movies. Clementine turned the whole concept of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl on its head and threw it right in the trash where it belongs, and i positively adore her for it. 💕
@OreadNYC Ironically i was a control freak by being very direct or subtle but through life experiences i matured into controlling the only person it is morally acceptable to control, myself.
@L'amoureux du Café In all fairness, you're preaching to the choir in my case because I fortunately learned that lesson many years ago...and I agree with you 100%. There have been more than a few stubborn control freaks in my family (mostly extended family whom I thankfully don't see very often) and I was at one point on track to potentially being one of them -- "people pleasers" are almost always control freaks as well but simply go about it in a gentler, more oblique , and socially acceptable way! -- but I realized that not only do I not have the power to change other people, I also don't have the prerogative no matter how good I might believe my intentions are. Other people aren't pets or playthings or possessions or prisoners. I'm aware that the primary motivation driving control freaks is unacknowledged terror of either failing to obtain something they want/need but don't have or else losing something they do have -- but that doesn't necessarily make them much easier to live with.
@OreadNYC It will sound cliché but you can't change people unless they want to change. My best tip is that if you dislike that type of behavior/attitude then do your best to not be like them however don't waste time trying to change them or avoid them if possible.
@L'amoureux du Café At least in my experience and observation, there are quite a lot of people who never grow out of that and who all their lives use themselves as the yardstick which they use to evaluate the rest of the world with the result that they usually denigrate or dismiss anything which they don't understand which doesn't fit their paradigm of The Way Things Ought To Be.
@M G Sanz OMG, I had a childhood friend who used me for the same purpose. A very one-sided friendship, although it limped along for 40 years until she died.
I remember explaining this movie to my dad and he was shocked by the procedure that erases peoples memories. He believed that we should remember at least some parts of others we were involved with, especially if they were toxic. Otherwise if we come across them in the street one day and can’t remember that they treated us like crap we’ll get back into the toxicity. It’s also nice to have fond memories of those we have loved and lost who we had healthy relationships with because they will always be a source of comfort to us when we need it.
I wouldn't mind erasing some of the happy memories with my ex, the ones I know now were lies. Just to take the edge off so I can move on. Keep the things I need to never go back to him ever again, or put up with psychological abuse from anybody else either.
@LittleMissEvel I think some people want to forget those they have lost because it’s too hard for them to handle the grief and find closure so they’d rather forget the pain
I love when Alan gets to talk about all the film-making techniques. It’s a real pleasure to see him light up about his passion, plus I invariably learn something new!
...and positively nauseating for him to say "it's so much fun to learn how I'm better than all these couples." Let me break this down for you... 1) it's so much fun 2) to lean I'm better than xyz That is how a narcissist thinks....a covert narcissist with a desperate need to believe they are superior to others.
As a fellow INFP who is a woman who would get a crush on any guy who showed me the slightest bit of kindness, this gave me hope. It's really hard to make that transition from wanting to be saved by someone else to telling yourself that your needs, likes, dislikes, desires, wounds, matter even without outside validation. For me, all my crushes were unrequited, and that's also really hard. It's easy to believe the lie that you're unable to fill your own void simply because you've been looking to other people your whole life to do it for you. It was a game-changer when I realized there were people in the world who didn't look to other people to meet their needs, and were healthy people emotionally, which meant I could do the same thing too, and in many ways I already was. Still working on myself step by step and have come a long way in the last five years. Love your channel and this was the Perfect movie to add to your list of film commentary videos.
a fellow INFP here and im so happy your working on yourself, and i also wish to have that courage to prioritize others, yes, but dont make it in a way it's instead of yourself
@Emilyn Wood I appreciate the advice and will definitely consider my options after a few months of trying out therapy. On terms of journaling, I’ve kept a journal, though I did end up recycling back to the problem, and finding myself writing about the same things in a constant loop, instead of journaling things to fix the situation bit by bit. That and when I was consistent, it helped for a good few months. I will see about picking it up again, now with a fresher perspective on what exactly I should do with a journal as opposed to write in it arbitrarily.
I liked the extra addition of Carrie and Rob, Joel's friends. They're clearly going through some relationship problems, and aren't the rosiest couple, but they opt to work through their problems, as opposed to running off to Lacuna to erase their memories of each other.
Well, they weren't technically "working" on their problems, they just argued lol I wish they would've showed them breaking up by the end of the movie, but doing so amicably, so that we could see the contrast between them and Clem/Joel.
Apparently Nicolas Cage was supposed to play Joel but was unavailable at the time, but I'm so glad Jim Carrey did this role, really shows that his acting range isn't limited to his animated comedic performances. This, and The Truman show are my favourite performances. He and Kate Winslet were absolutely pheneomenal, great video guys
@Chris Kellyersonally I think too much is made of that line. I think they pulled it out and used it as a tagline for the movie right? But in the script and in the film itself, I don’t think it’s really that important and shouldn’t be treated like the movie’s thesis. Harry hangs out with the Carrie Fischer character when they’re all together, after all, as a group of friends. I think insofar as there is truth to Harry’s idea, it’s not “men and women can’t be friends”, it’s “if you’re attracted to someone, it makes your relationship with them complicated in a way that might not fit with a common definition of friendship (leaving aside the fact that many friendships are actually very complicated for various reasons).” Less pithy, but accurate. College-age Harry expresses it the way he does because 1) heteronormativity 2) he’s kind of a slut (no shame, just facts) and projects that onto everyone. As the movie goes on and the relationship/complicated friendship between Harry and Sally deepens, what the phrase comes to mean for them specifically is, “you can’t just be friends if you’re in actually in love.” (Importantly though, friendship is their path to falling in love.)
Maybe this will be out of left field, but what about the movie Bedazzled with Brendan Frazer? I remember being really impressed with the end and how the main character had grown. Then again, I was young so maybe my memories are leading me astray
@Vera Mae I’d also like to them tackle the classics, especially “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence” (Jimmy Stewart’s character, who wins the girl that the John Wayne character covets-I always wonder whether she ended up being unhappy with her choice of man).
"When people feel unconditionally loved and safe, they are actually more likely to grow and change." --- Most profound statement ever!!! But yeah, I love this movie so much and I'm thrilled to see you two talk about it.
YES YES YES I'VE BEEN WAAAAITING FOR THIS. Clementine and Summer from 500 days of summer are the anti manic pixie dream girls in the disguise of mpdgirls.
People seem to hold Ramona Flowers from Scott Pilgrim vs. The World up as the quintessential Manic Pixie Dream Girl because of her whole "cool girl" look and vibe, but within the actual film (and comics!) she's basically an anti-MPDG as well. She was the MPDG for all of her Evil Exes, and she doesn't want to be that anymore. She admits she's not a good person, she treats people poorly, and she rejects Scott when he yet again just sees her as the "cool and interesting girl" who is going to make his life better. Scott has to discover his self-respect and respect for others on his own, and that's the only way he can save the day. He loses when he tries to fight for Ramona, and he only wins when he fights for _himself._ At the end of the film, he doesn't start a relationship with Ramona as a boring guy who needs her to make his life better, they start a real relationship as two flawed people who go off on a journey of self-discovery together. Of course, this is all contained with a bunch of wacky cartoon fights, Edgar Wright comedy writing, and rad music, so the core message seems to have been lost on most people.
I like that you guys touched on how "you will never get all of your needs met from one single person" because i think this movie shows codependency pretty well - including the fact that they wanted to erase each other from their memories. It's hard to move on from that kind of relationship, and sometimes you want to just erase everything to be able to move on. I would never actually, because I've grown so much from my messy relationship, but i completely understand the urge.
I remember watching this film for the first time on a plane because I wanted something soft and easy, and ended up almost crying on a stupid ryanair flight because of how good this film is. All the characters are so well fleshed out, not only Joel and Clementine but the side characters as well. And it all feels so real, and leaves you with so many questions. It's one of my absolute favorites if not the favorite.
I know, I loved the dynamic between Mary and Stan, and the backstory of course with Mierzwiack and her. I really wished Mary gave Stan a real chance, but she needed to heal from her trauma with the doctor. Having her memory erased backfired because she just fell in love again without having healing. Now that she has her tape back and knows what happened, she can heal it all, but it'll take time. As for Patrick, man, love to hate him haha.
Three years ago my Partner of (today) 8 years and I had an "Okay." - "Okay." moment, during an especially hard episode on both our mental health states and therefore ofc also very difficult state of our relationship. But after figuring out what our love is and what we want from the relationship and ourselves, we had an "okay". And it was the greatest okay of my life. Never been as understanding for each other as we are today.
@Joshua W what's particularly sad is that there are people who aren't satisfied with being accepted in their entirety and loved anyway. Some people find that boring, especially after many years together. Some people much prefer temporary, superficial attachments. I'll never understand that. I'll never understand hating yourself so much that you can't stand to be accepted and instead preferring to pretend to be someone else.
Love is not a feeling, it is a choice you make whether someone deserves it or not. For a relationship to work both people need to choose to accept the other person for who they are and not expect them to be any different. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, but rather that improvement comes as a intrinsically motivated result of being accepted rather than being externally motivated by the need to please your partner for fear of them leaving you if you don't change.
My view on Joel's "okay." is that even knowing it might lead to chaos and not work out... He still thinks it's worth it, to be with her and see where it goes. And I absolutely love that about this film. If they knew how it would end... They would still think it was worth it for the journey they get to share together
@jliller I agree with you to a large extent. I'm okay with risking a relationship that might not work out and take a chance - because it also MIGHT just as possibly work out! But I would NEVER pursue a relationship already expecting it to be temporary for good reasons other than normal human life uncertainty. My first real crush -at fifteen - was on an slightly older co-worker at my after-school job (he was eighteen). I enjoyed my crush, but I KNEW we weren't meant to be. I loved his personality but we had different values: a long-term relationship could only have worked if one of us had changed, and obviously neither of us had the right to demand that of the other. So I never pursued it. I was so young, but I was able to say to myself 'okay, now you know what kind of personality attracts you. One day, you'll meet a guy with the same or better personality who shares your values too, and HE'LL be the right one.' I don't agree with the people who think you ACTUALLY have to get in a relationship you know won't last in order to learn from someone about what you value in a relationship, or to care about them as a person even though they're not for you. I think temporary relationships are a complete waste of time. (Obviously it's completely different if you get into a relationship having every reason to think it will be permanent and then something happens to break it up. That's nobody's fault and couldn't have been prevented; just one of life's tragedies. Which can still be LEARNED from, but shouldn't be marketed as necessary life experience.)
@jliller I guess that's the interesting thing about love. When you're on the other side, after it broke your heart, you sometimes still know that if you could change it, you wouldn't
That's a leap I can't make. If I knew a relationship was unlikely to work, especially if I could see why it shouldn't work, I couldn't enjoy it. "This isn't a good idea" would always be nagging at me even if the relationship was seemingly healthy and otherwise happy in the present. Ever since I became old enough to want a relationship, I have only ever wanted a serious, lifelong relationship. Anything casual or that I know is temporary has always been unappealing.
The manic pixie dream girl discussion is so relevant and Necessary! Movies still push this trope, and young men still look for it. Throughout my teens and 20’s, I took on that expectation and tried to live that role. I was a young undiagnosed Autistic woman. Trying to be the chameleon for the sake of others. A lot of MPDGs are modeled off of our stereotypes- and it rebounds off of how we understand the world in very complex ways…
@Maggypie Elsterlein Thank you!✨ What you shared sounds pretty similar to my life experiences too. I scored solidly high on each camouflaging/masking autism test I took, including the one my psychiatrist-therapist gave me!😆 I’m glad you’re feeling more accepted now, and accepting of yourself. So am I. Finally knowing why I was different, and how to manage it better, helped so much!
Thread Warning: My original comment was intended to introduce an open (and hopefully somewhat safe, for an online thread) discussion of the Autistic experience in connection with the Cinema Therapy movie themes. This thread has become an unsafe space to share personal experiences. One participant insists on claiming an expertise they do not have, and insisting to numerous people that they are asserting false autism diagnoses or were misdiagnosed. Whether that person is autistic or not themselves is irrelevant. It is irresponsible to be yet Another person in the world arguing to Negate the life experience of high-masking Autistic people. If you believe yourself to be high-masking autistic, are seeking accurate diagnosis or finally got diagnosed autistic, I and many members of the autistic community believe and support you! Trained diagnosticians affirm that masking IS extremely common in undiagnosed or late-diagnosed autistic women and men- it’s how we flew under the radar so long, or struggled with being misdiagnosed (including misdiagnosed as BPD!😳) along the way. High-masking autism research is a somewhat new field, and while well-trained specialists (who are aware of *current* findings) recognize our symptoms, the DSM criteria still reflect the old model. Please don’t give up. You are or can be heard. ✨ (Just not likely here!) *High-masking generally means that, while the autistic individual still suffers from the symptoms and consequences of autistic neurology, they have developed an ability to hide many of the more easily recognized traits at most times (ie trained eye contact, forced temporary tolerance of sensory issues, hiding stimming and meltdowns). We often have social skills and communication abilities beyond what the limited “old criteria” defined. Social difficulties, sensory issues, anxiety and/or depression, and constrained meltdown or shutdown when overwhelmed remain common, and create impairment for us. (This is based on contemporary research, not my personal experience. Type in a search engine: “high masking autism”. You will find credible sources.) I absolutely will not further engage in any negative or negating comments in this thread, tho I wish that person well.
@Maggypie Elsterlein "masking" isn't part of the DSM 5 diagnostic criteria though. You've completely misunderstood that and are now repeating your misunderstanding as though it were fact. The criteria you're referring to is actually "Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities, or may be masked by learned strategies in later life)." At no point does that state that masking is a diagnostic criteria. What it in fact states is that early developmental period symptoms must have been present, but that they may have been masked by learned behaviour in later life. That doesn't mean that someone can show exactly zero indication of autism because they "mask so well," although that is a very common misconception amongst the self diagnosed internet "community." It means that some autistic people may have learned behaviours through their experiences that helped them hide their symptoms as adults. There is no such thing as an autistic teen that masks well, it is a myth. There are however autistic teens whose behaviour is misinterpreted as other things, often female autistic teens, who later receive an incorrect personality disorder diagnosis because their coping mechanisms happen to be more on the explosive anger side of the spectrum. Having said that, many personality disorder diagnoses are also accurate (and many are misdiagnosed as autism), but that doesn't stop those people trying to shoehorn themselves into the autism diagnostic criteria to try and escape the associated stigma of their diagnosis. TLDR: "masking" is not a diagnostic criteria, in the DSM5 or the ICD11 for that matter. A lack of sense of self absolutely is a diagnostic criteria of BPD though. The two are often mistaken even by exceptionally well trained professionals.
Honestly, I interpreted Clementines rebuke of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope as a key reason how Joel failed in their relationship. He just assigned this woman to give some type of purpose or meaning to his life and she had her own stuff going on and she was incredibly upfront about that, he just slotted her into this role anyway and it wasn't fair. Also, all of Clementine's character arc takes place in his head. Just because he made her a manic pixie dream girl in his head, does not mean that aligns with her real character.
Speaking as a man who is extremely identical to Joel I can tell you something for matter fact which is Joel didn't trust anybody and it wasn't fair to Clementine because she trusted him even though most of the time he didn't even meet her needs or even want to understand her fundamentally. He never opened himself up to her because he never opened himself up to anybody and she started to internalize that separation which manifested itself as a negative view of Joel as a boring or uncaring man. As we can see in the conclusion it's the exact opposite of her own perspective. Joel would give up anything for her because he loves her he was just too afraid to let her know that. He wanted her to wait because he wasn't ready to heal and to open up to her and she said, "okay", and since she finally accepted him for who he was he felt he was able to finally accept her for who she was and also replied, "okay". This was extremely cathartic for me my dudes. Thanks for everything.
OMG I'M SO HAPPY THEY FINALLY DID THIS MOVIE😭 this is one of my favorite movies of all time. The relationship between Joel and Clementine and the progress they both went through as well as the memories you see just 🤧🤧 Also I would LOVE to see them watch Everything Everywhere All at once. That movie is added to one of my favorites and gives me the same kinda feel as this one
@Trina Q exactly its the ambiguity of the ending that feels so satisfying. Maybe they try and works out, maybe it doesn't. But that what makes this movie so beautiful. Had they gave us the outcome of their final choices, it would've dulled the impact of how they got there as an audience
Preach, I liked that they made it ambiguous as to whether Joel and Clementine gave their relationship another shot, while acknowledging how it could also end badly. But they seem willing to own up to their mistakes this time, and try again.
My ex-wife showed me this and "As Good As It Gets" when we started dating, but I only understood why with the benefit of hindsight. I wish this had been a thing way back then, but maybe it'll help some other couples understand each other. You're doing the Lord's work, fellas; keep it up. Also, y'all should do "As Good As It Gets" for an episode; there's a lot of therapy-meat on them bones.
A question I have always pondered in this movie is that if we were able to remove painful and traumatic memories, wouldn’t the triggers and trauma still exist? And in that case how scary and confusing would it be not to know where those feelings come from? Or how to process?
That's what this movie is saying. It's implied that Clementine went through a similar experience Joel did and was drawn to Montauk. Even though she can't remember specific events, just like Joel, just like Mary, there is still an impression left. Joel is comfortable with being alone with her, a complete stranger. Clementine feels unnerved and anxious when Patrick is regifting her gifts Joel gave her. Mary still kisses her boss, having no memory of their affair or any of the actual events that made her fall in love with him. Kind of like how in the beginning of the movie, his car has a dent in it. Erasing that memory doesn't change the fact that Clementine crashed his car when she was angry and put a dent in it.
YES. I had an abusive and neglectful childhood, and I cannot remember the sexual abuse, but I remember a childhood dream which as an adult I can decipher the meaning of which indicates I was violated. I had sex with a partner high on marijuana and began to remember something and began to panic. I'm triggered by lots of things and have always been phobic of people. Most of childhood I don't remember. I got another memory "clip" recovered when I was on shrooms one time. What happens when a child is dependent on an abusive caregiver is that the brain creates amnesia barriers for protection. Sometimes in serious cases, dissociative identity disorder develops, with each "self" splintered off to serve a purpose for different tough situations and even to hold a traumatic memory. I believe I have this as well. A good book about a woman with DID is "Nobody Nowhere" by the late Donna Williams, who also has a KZclip channel, though she's called herself Polly Samuel since writing her books. She is also on the autism spectrum.
Good point. I think memory loss can come with being in a highly stressful environment whether a romantic relationship, family or other situations where your life can be turned upside down. We block a lot of memories if they're painful, or hard to understand and to be fair our brains can only remember and store a limited number of things in a day anyway. Some people remember trauma vividly, and some block it out. I think blocking trauma is our brain's way of protecting us from constant pain, it's why remembering things in therapy and reliving stuff is so hard to do for some people and why people just quit therapy so easily sometimes. It also brings up interesting notions about memory loss, specifically about being in a stressful relationship. If you had a chance to forget a particularly difficult relationship would you do it to reduce your emotional turmoil or would you learn to live with everything that happened if you were able to recall the good times you had and what you learned in the bad times to reach personal growth?
Really good point! In my painful personal experience, friends or relatives who are really insecure can often be pretty self-centred, weirdly...? Their expectations about what entails "real" friendship or love are often very unrealistic & extreme, and if you can't meet those expectations, they jump straight to "you don't care"? 😔 (Rather than having any empathy about potential reasons why what they demand is impossible). They often seem to have learned emotional blackmail/guilt-tripping as a coping strategy too (presumably from the same parents/caregivers who damaged their self esteem), so trying to negotiate for a continued relationship on more balanced grounds can be pretty fraught too....? Sometimes it just doesn't work & all you can do is grieve the broken link.
Huh... interestingly, my wife is the "chatter" in our relationship who tells me everything she's feeling all the time; and I am a more quiet type who only speaks when I feel I have something important to say. This doesn't cause any conflict between us. Sometimes she apologizes for talking so much, and I usually reply "well, the alternative is awkward silence, so go ahead and talk!"
There are tons of couples like that, often with the woman being the chattier one. I read somewhere that they are attracted to each other so often because she always has someone to listen to her and he is not required to do much talking....
That's because you two accept each other. She is not trying to make you talk more, and you're not trying to make her shut up. You complement each other well, which is great.
My fiancé and I (if I can even still call him that) are really struggling in our relationship right now and I sent this to him, to hopefully make him see that couples go through really difficult patches but they can make it through and find their way back to each other. I just hope we can do it without erasing each other from our memories.
I was in a rough spot with my partner and we watched this film. I really cried like a baby, and realized how wrong were my expectations of relationships. It's truly a beautiful film.
One of my favourite films! I think Clementine isn't the "manic pixie dream girl " trope for many reasons but mainly she has a character beyond "quirky " it's interesting how many times I've watched that film and always interpreted the end as they don't get back together and the loop at the end is bittersweet.
This is one of those movies that gets harder to watch the older you get. I was 16 the first time I saw this movie. I liked it but I couldn’t understand it to the full extent cause I had never experienced love like that yet. And now almost 20 years later…I get it. This film has and will continue to always stick with me cause it’s a reminder that love comes with pain. But to always have an appreciation for the start of things with someone cause there was a time when you did love one another.
@Ms12369 From experience it is dangerous to base a relationship on that. It is good if someone is kind to you, but it also lays you open to manipulation, and it should be a two way street.
I really think that if your videos were translated into more languages, it would help so many more people. More people really deserve to know this amazing channel
So, as someone who also falls in love with every woman who shows me the slightest kindness this starting conversation has punched me in the gut and we’re not even five minutes in, that’s a new record.
My condolences, that must be extremely hard, but I hope that you manage to get through these tough times, while remembering the positive and negative times fondly. ❤️
Would LOVE if you guys did a Family Therapy episode about Little Miss Sunshine. Hilarious movie with really interesting family dynamics across 3 generations. Such a great movie.
One of my favorite movies!! My biggest take away from it has always been, "it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" some relationships can be painful, but every one of them is an opportunity for growth.
3:40-4:48 I can identify with everything Jonathan is saying here. That is the exact journey I am on right now. Having been alone all of my life at age 28, it is hard to gain that self love as I have watched everyone around me fall in and out of love more than once and sometimes it seems I'm destined to remain alone. But I'll keep working on it by myself and hopefully soon with the help of a therapist as well (currently looking for one).
All you can do is work on yourself. I'm 43 and just ended what was otherwise my healthiest relationship yet over us both realising there was a key area where we don't mesh, that long term will lead to a power imbalance and resentment. So, single again, hurting real bad, but also happy because I've finally learnt to have the conversations and reach that acceptance the guys are talking about. Please do the work, it's worth it.
I took way longer to learn to love myself. I am 48, been married 27 years, but now I am understanding that we are not a fit for each other. 😒 So hard, though, to just walk away.
Good luck in that journey. I learned to love myself in my loneliness many years ago the problem was that i was not aware of the people around me rooting for me and extending their hands to help/support me (I just needed to extend it back to them). Being alone, from what i've learned, is a conscious choice and all you need is to do is to allow yourself to be with others, invest time, share experiences, create new experiences and most importantly build bridges.
I remember watching this with my father when it came out on DVD and he said something I'll always remember: the person Joel was at the beginning of the movie wouldn't have gone after Clementine, and the person Clementine was at the beginning of the film wouldn't have come back.
Yes! I adore this film. Thank you for covering it. It’s wonderful to explore the idea of erasing unwanted memories - as painful as they may be, they are our foundation and a source of growth 💙
…And quite frankly it’d be doomed to miserable failure if you could even try… Yup. It’s funny; with modern science & pharmacology, we as humans do currently possess the chemicals & technology to make ourselves feel any way we desire at any time we so choose… …Yet we still lack the responsibility to acknowledge & allow ourselves to feel how we should (as opposed to how we want). It’s impossible to reconcile that choosing to not help yourself, because it’s more important to take the bad with the good, isn’t selling yourself out… Yet just because you can take someone’s pain away, even your own, it doesn’t mean you automatically should.
Precisely, even though it might be difficult to reminisce on an old relationship, it's worth remembering as opposed to forgetting that it ever happened.
This is a very relatable episode for this point in my life. Currently in a "situationship" that is reminiscent of this pair. I gain something from every episode ya'll do, relatable to me or not. But this one was very insightful and helpful. Thank you guys for all you do.
Your opening monologue is great, I just can't always agree with that. Narcissists will use your unconditional love as a tool to never grow or change and keep you devoted to them. Different identity disorders need different love styles.
True. What is the unintended gift from the narcissist is actually the gift from ourselves, the gift of exceptional growth and wisdom after we leave them. I was raised by one, so I have more healing to go, but thankful for the ways it's deepened my soul.
Honestly, something that has really resonated with me over the past month is that idea of "You can't get all your social needs from just one person." In my case, it's not because that person doesn't exist, because she does, and I love her madly, and I recognize I'm extremely lucky to have found someone that I really can click with in every way to some degree- But to sort of open up a bit about my situation, in case anyone else can learn from it or empathize, I'm in a long distance relationship with a wonderful person, and have been for almost 2 years now, and we've finally gotten to a point where we're ready to move in together to close that physical distance, but something happened on her end to where I can't talk to her until I can reach her (not to get too into it but she has a toxic family that she's also trying to get out of), so for close to a month, and soon to be over it, we've had no contact, I can't speak to what she's going through because I know it must be much worse than what I am, but it made me realize, I HAVE depended on her for basically all my interpersonal needs, and she's depended on me, and it's opened my eyes to the fact that, one way or another, while this will (hopefully) be temporary, there WILL be a day, hopefully far into the future but I know we can't really control, where more than likely, one of us will pass away, and the other will have to live with that, and I honestly hope that I'm the one who grieves because I don't wish that on her, so I've come to realize, friendship is very important, as is having a wide variety of good people around you that you can build healthy relationships with, because no one lives forever, no matter how much we want them to, and that's why it's important to have as good of relationships as you can possibly develop, so that when the storm comes, even in the worst case scenario, you won't go down with the ship alone. I'm very grateful for this channel and this community, and even if this is just me talking to myself, that's okay, but if there's someone out there listening, that's even better, and I hope you have a good life with good people, and that you can develop a practice to be grateful for that, and that if you're not, you can build yourself to a situation where you can start, and know that, even if you may not be fortunate in this moment to have someone right next to you, you can still love yourself, and find people who love you too, we're all out here, and we're all human, you just may need to take a few leaps to find us. Have a good day. 👍
Hey there, I've also been in a long distance relationship for 1,5 years before my partner moved in with me. We used to skype almost daily and the first and last thing of our days was sending each other a "good morning" and "good night" message. So, here's the thing: I felt so good to finally be around each other more and I for example was sooo excited when he came home from work and wanted to talk and to do stuff with him like play a game or watch a movie while he still needed to recover from work... felt a bit like a rejection for me until we talked about it. Also, there'll be so many things that get more "normal" when you see each other every day and I think it's good to focus on a few dear habits that you don't want to lose over time. Finally: yes, you'll need other friends to spend time with and even more importantly she'll also have to make friends once she moves over. It's cool to have a big circle of common friends, but you also need to give her room to find her own allies. Neither of you should depend on the other. My two cents after living together for 5 years now 😀
One half of my family reach out to others, are hurt, and try again while supporting each other. The other half try once or twice, keep to themselves, and are faced with near immediate disaster when one of the very few people they interact with, pass on or move on. I try to find a balance, but I feel you. It's hard to remember to keep up with friends, once in a relationship with a great match. A wise friend I've known for ages always reminded me of this; it's great to be excited about new friends and crushes, but don't make that person your whole world and forget the others. I hope she'll be okay, and can get out of that. I hope living together will work out fine, and that you'll give each other time and space to adjust. Best of luck!
I've always wondered what Clem confronted when her memories of Joel were being erased. I assume she fought just as hard to keep those memories of him (I assume everyone did, like the woman who wanted to forget her dog who died), but I wonder what her projection of him would have told her. How would those conversations play out in her mind that allowed her subconscious growth?
Cinema therapy has been hitting me back to back with my most favourite movies and show ? I appreciate this channel so much thank you to everyone who works on these videos 🎅🏿
I love this movie, I was so depressed over a break up watching this yet felt healed after watching this. It teaches that love whether good or bad teaches us important lessons and is worth the risk
I'm the talkative one in the relationship, my husband is largely silent. My mom has given me grief for answering questions directed at my husband, but she doesn't know him like I do. I can tell when he doesn't want to answer her question, and I'm redirecting her unwanted attention back on me. Which my husband is always thankful for.
I think it's okay as long as she is protecting or defending your interest in someway. Sometimes others who love you differently are seeing and investigating things for you. If he is just uncomfortable and not being abused in some way, it's necessary sometimes to communicate through that. And you may be protecting him from the growth that you and your family may provide. Sometimes not though. Lol
This doesn’t really have anything to do with the movie, but I just wanted to thank you guys so much for making this channel. I love watching your videos, they’re so much fun to watch and I love learning more about the filmmaking of movies that I love. The way that you guys talk about therapy, mental health struggles, psychological issues, etc. has been really helpful for me and coming to terms with my own issues and actually helped me to decide to start doing therapy. So thank you all so much to you and your wonderful team, wishing you all the best in the world and all the love! 💕💕💕
I can relate so much to Jonathan falling in love with every woman who showed him the least bit of attention. I’ve rarely regretted it, but my last ex made me think “damn…stuff happened that I shouldn’t have accepted, but I got so caught up in wanting to be with them that I forgot to keep up my own standards.” That’s when I realised how damaging it can be to be a hopeless romantic. Standards are important, people. Even when you think that having crushes all the time hasn’t been a problem, you deserve someone with the best personality (for you). Also, seeing breaking up as an option is important too. If you don’t feel like you ever could, you’re not ready to be in a relationship at all. Edit: wow…I wrote that when they mentioned it, but now Jonathan is mentioning him needing to love himself first. Oh…my god. This is exactly what I need. In fact, it’s what I’ve been working on since the relationship, but I’ve never thought of it so clearly. Yes, my vague direction has just become so much clearer. I guess that’s where I’m going next. I’m not there yet. Family trauma that isn’t even done traumatising me is kinda slowing my growth, but I’m going to get there wether my toxic family likes it or not. I’m important enough to prioritise that. See! I’m already growing further.
My favourite moment with my husband was when he accurately identified how I was feeling. Growing up, I was always told "this is how you feel" and it was always wrong. But my partner knows me like my family never has.
I can relate way too much to "I get bored of you and then I feel trapped, because that's what happens to me". Overall the couple reminds me of me and my boyfriend a little bit.
This was my boyfriends movie before we met, and it has slowly become my favorite movie over the past few years. It’s weird because we are very much similar reflections of Joel and Clementine. Right down to the “no jokes about my name” 😂
I love it! 'Before Sunset' is my favorite. I once watched it twice in a row. There is so much between the lines, in their expressions, in what they talk (or lie) about... and I guess the idealization of 'the one that got away' is something most people can relate to.
I second that suggestion! I remember seeing the first one and being amazed at how much more compelling a movie romance could be without all the overdone tropes and distractions of most romantic movies. Just two strangers getting to know eachother and feeling the spark... and ofc the sequels explore other aspects of relationships in a great way!
Jonathan is such a role model for me... I'm 17, a senior in high school and I've been going through the exact things he had gone through for as long as I can remember (I remember being in kindergarten and idealizing a perfect marriage lol) It makes me emotional seeing someone who had gone through the same things as I do, successfully. I mean... it's a rare state for a person to be in: having *too* good models to observe love that it's a problem.I always felt lonely, as if I was the only one who had this problem. I feel like everyone around me is the exact opposite of me, sometimes I get the impression that they don't even like being valued, I think they see being valued as some sort of responsibility that they have to deal with. I want to value, I want to get valued, because I want to get valued I value, but I don't have my value back. People come and go but the cycle always remains the same. I can't even express how alienated I feel. Knowing that someone like Jonathan exists is such a relief for me... I'm not an alien and now I have a path to improve myself. I have to practice self love, I have to be self sufficient with my value system before getting other people involved.
Fascinating to consider how lovers gravitated back towards each other after memories were erased. Kirsten Dunst's character understood that it was best not to interfere with the inevitable pull.
I would love to see your takes on Stranger than Fiction. Has a lot of interpersonal discussion about self. It's similiar to Eternal Sunshine in that it's a comedic actor that took on a drama role and blew it out of the water.
Oh wow, that acting is so good. I’ve not seen this movie (but now plan to!) but the ending scene, of acceptance by both and Kate‘s/Clementine’s sob just got me. The relief that they will both try again. So good!!
I think of this movie as a sort of Rorschach test for how one views romantic relationships. To the more optimistic, Clementine and Joel need to not just forget about their problems so they can grow together. To the pessimistic, they need to not forget so they can stay the heck away from each other.
I saw Eternal Sunshine in the theaters for my birthday one year and I definitely was not in the right space, either emotionally or mentally otherwise, to appreciate it at the time. Immediately afterwards, I snuck into Kill Bill: Part 2 even though I hadn't yet seen Part 1 before it and I enjoyed the heck out of it.
I haven't watched this movie in years and forgot how amazing it is! The final scene of "Okay" made me suddenly burst into tears! It's so well acted, written, and filmed and has such a lovely story of growth in a relationship. I really appreciated the move making insights that I never noticed before lile the library books and lighting changes. SO COOL!
Can I just say... the subtitles are exquisite, like there's punctuation, and the little dashes that make it seem like you're reading a play. Thank you.
Your movies lately are on point!! For the last month you've been so on fire that I audibly squeal at the sight of every new post. So many good ones I can't wait to get to. This and Marriage story being great examples!
I watched this movie first time in my 20s, and it hit me so hard like nothing else. Made me cry, and 15 years later, i still find it painful to watch. One of my favorite movies ever. Thanks for doing an episode on it, all the best to you guys!
Thank you for finally discussing this hidden gem of a film. I watched it in the theater and was the only person in the audience who laughed at any of it. Most importantly, the movie motivated me to seek professional help after a long break from treatment.
Jonathan, I appreciate you sharing your backstory about needing acceptance, and struggling with feeling lovable each time you got dumped. That’s been my adult life to a T. No matter how hard I tried, I always got dumped, and I kept thinking that that had to be because there was something horrible about me that drove people away.
The way Alan explains the movie and the elements of it and how Jono explains the movie events, its meaning and its application of it on the movie and in life is how I am when I watch films. I wish I could meet someone that shares the same movie interest in films with me.
God, I love this movie so much. It always gives me all the feels. When Joel goes and says ok at the end, man that gets me. When you think about it, it's such a romantic line. Clem lays out all of the problems that they'll face if they try to be together, and Joel just says ok.
Eternal Sunshine is why I love indie films over standard Hollywood crap nowadays. It's such a beautiful and intimate glimpse into the relationship of these two, topped off by an interesting vibe reminiscent of social science fiction. It's far more captivating as a character study into romantic love. It's probably one of Jim Carrey's best films. I couldn't think of any other 2 amazing actors to bring this great flick to life.
the hbo series scenes from a marriage with oscar isaac and jessica chastain is an incredible piece of relationship art that i think both of you would love if you haven’t already seen it
Thinking back, I always have grieved my relationships in reverse. Angry and resentful. Then looking back how it got so bad. Eventually while I'm used to being single for awhile, I look back and remember the first date, fondly. I'm friends with a few exes now and we have a deep respect and appreciation for each other. I just hope I can maintain that perspective while in a relationship.
Aw. Haven't seen this movie but looks adorable and relatable for sure...seeing as you included a clip of it, for suggestions, I'd love to see you guys do an episode on "500 days of Summer" (loved that movie so much🥰) also "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" the cinematography was gorgeous and the concept of maladapted daydreaming and introversion was also very relatable for me...as always, you guys rock!🤘🤗😋
Was that a freaking Homestar Runner (Strong Bad) tie-in joke?! +100 points!! I also super-relate to the "Why do I fall in love with every woman I see who shows me the least bit of attention" line.
Click here www.allform.com/cinematherapy for 20% off the sofa of your choice - plus free shipping within the US! Jonathan's loving his new sofa (especially for watching movies!) #Allform
Do 500 days of Summer
It's lounge chairs, guys
Could you please speak on 'Do revenge' on Netflix? I found their characters interesting and it felt equally scary that I've actually met teenagers like that
Ok but if ya'll haven't reacted to Whiplash, you gotta. I had to watch it in parts because of how similar Simmon's character was to people I know.
Thank you for reviewing the movie I didn't know I needed reviewed by you two. This movie was a big part of my teenage years and it is SO CATHARTIC to hear you break this down.
I love when Jim Carrey takes these dramatic roles. He's a blast to watch in his regular comedic films, but his performances in movies like The Truman Show and this one show that he can also convey great sadness and emotional depth in his characters.
I much prefer his serious acting.
23 was pretty good.
You really REALLY should try the serie "Kidding"
I agree. Jim Carrey is a very deep man whose comedy is only a fraction of his talent (although he's better at that than most comedians).
I love the Truman Show, it's one of my favourite movies of all time.
Watch Jim and Andy: The Great Beyond for Jim's extremely insightful realisations about the nature of the self.
Kidding kidding kidding Kidding Kidding kiDDING kIDDING KIDDING!
Same director and actor as this film!
though, lacking the brilliant and ever underappreciated Charlie Kaufman, the writer of this film.
Still, depressingly wholesomely complete as a work, in 2 seasons.
A cool little detail is also on the tapes Joel says that Clem wasn’t well-educated and he can’t talk about books with her but in his memories you see her reading a book a couple of times and she works LITERALLY at a book store, which just highlights that he wasn’t really opening him up to talking to her and wasn’t really seeing her past his preconceived version of her
Yes! His too harsh judgement is very damaging.
This movie always makes me think of the quote:
"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley
Something I didn't pick up on until I was much older: Joel is incredibly passive aggressive. He's judgemental toward Clementine throughout the memories he ends up erasing, and he continually baits her into reacting by very softly and quietly dropping comments he knows will hurt her deeply (the remark about her not being ready for kids, the jab about her "constantly talking") and then she takes the bait and he walks away while she reacts and, boom, we have a narrative about her being "volatile and reactive." But he constantly needles her. It isn't until they meet post-Lacuna that he's able to just accept her, and I think that's a big part of the significance of the final scene where he shrugs and says "okay." And, for her part, when she heard the jab in the tape (about her sleeping with people to get them to like her) she just quietly removed herself instead of rising to the bait of his hurtful comment. So, yes, growth! But I just wanted to throw that in as well -- it's a big dynamic of their relationship that's very subtle.
19:15 he talks about this more in depth. I thought I was the only one that saw it this way!
I picked up on this too!
@Linda G. I agree with you that a crowded street wasn't the place to have the discussion and so did Joel which is why he said so once Clementine foolishly initiated it.
@C Rose No, it's better to wait until they are not in the middle of a crowded street or marketplace or wherever they were so they can have an honest, important discussion about having children & Joel can tell her his reservations about having children with her, and give her time and space to react to that. Instead he made a snide comment in a crowded place, walked away from her, and told her that he didn't want to talk about it (therefore cutting her off & making her even more angry and frustrated) when she reacted to the very hurtful thing he said. None of this is rocket science, these are basic communication and relationship skills, I'm sorry you are having such a hard time understanding.
@C Rose A smirk is a facial expression. Bemused is an emotion (which is another word for "a feeling") a person might be indicating with a smirk. You can smirk smugly, you can smirk slyly, you can smirk defiantly, you can smirk triumphantly. You cannot "bemused" with your face but you can smirk. Does that make sense? Does that help? But nice try, I guess.
The thing to keep in mind about her being so defensive is that is what Joel remembers the clearest, fresh with rage and hurt and pain out of the break up. And then the deeper he goes, he remembers the softer, kinder bits of her. It’s more about his perception of her than of her actual objective character growth…
Yeah, we see their (first) relationship in reverse chronological order, that's important!
I thought the same when I watched it! What we saw first is the "exaggerated" version of her, because that's how memories work. It's not the real her.
Love this qualification, thanks!
I love how Clementine's hair colour corresponds with her relationship with Joel in terms of seasons. When they first meet, it's green, the colour of thawing, growth and springtime. It's red during their Summer of Love, their most passionate stage, and orange, an autumnal colour, when things start to "Fall" apart between them. In the present day, when they're broken up, it's blue to illustrate the freezing feelings and emotions, common with Winter.
Holy crap never correlated it like that!
I remember watching the video that did that color analysis of her hair. It was very interesting!
Blue hair also usually fades to green! The cycle continues
I so did not pick up on all that. I just thought they were both hot messes that should never have been together.
@Loriana Banana I was/still am the same way pretty much since I was a preteen. (Am 39 now) As a 10 year old my family moved to a new town and I started a new school an endured a lot of traumatic confusing events and on top of that I was being bullied by my own 5th grade teacher who even managed to turn most of the class against me. I was completely ostracized and lonely. Once 5th grade ended I knew I'd be starting middle school and would have to face the same classmates again. I wanted to shake my old image, I was shy, anxious, depressed so didn't know how to be outgoing. I had long black hair so I bleached it, (it came out bright orange ) and i cut it into a bob cut. When school started again every one was so shocked by my appearance that my 11 year old mind thought i could change who I was by drastically changing my hair and the other kids would no longer think of me as "the loser nobody liked in 5th grade " I was still having problems though and changed my hair constantly throughout 6th, 7th, 8th grade, etc bleaching it blonde one week then blue the next then hot pink etc..Of course by 13 my hair was fried, so it was always in a choppy bob cut. I also started with body piercings at 12, my mom was lenient about stuff like that and the more hurt I was emotionally the more I'd get. This continued into H.S then my 20s, and early 30s I always wanted long hair again but it was impossible with the way I treated it. Then after getting my life together, meeting my husband, having a child i started treating myself better, still bleach my hair blonde but only the roots. Now my hair has been long and healthy for a number of years now, I always jokingly say my hairs condition has been a metaphor for how my life is going, but its actually pretty true:) I'm glad you were able to find happiness, both you and your hair, lol xo
“I was the only one who was actively looking for a wife in kindergarten” is a gem
Isn't that the sweetest sentiment. It's so innocent.
I'm glad he said that. I always thought I must have been crazy as a child but I guess not. I felt the same way.
I really related to that statement and I’m not proud haha
ikr?😂
I burst out laughing in a way where I actually related to someone over something extremely specific. I wanted to get married when I was about 5 too, I told my grandmother one night. Here I am nearly 30 watching Cinema Therapy about a movie I've watched over a dozen times still unmarried, but one day. Gotta heal up like Jonathan said at 18:11 and then we get the happy ending.
Everything Joel went through as his memories were being erased, Clementine went through as well. I would have loved to see those same memories from her perspective. And I like to think she regretted her decision as well and that's why and how they found each other again.
They should make a movie of her experience
It's implied that she went through a similar experience he did and was drawn to Montauk. Even though she can't remember specific events, just like Joel, just like Mary, there is still an impression left. It's why Joel is comfortable with being alone with her. Why Clementine feels unnerved and anxious when Patrick is giving her gifts Joel gave her. Why Mary still kisses her boss, having no memory of their affair or any of the actual events that made her fall in love with him.
"I was loveable for like the short term but that no one really wanted to spend their life with me" is a very relatable thought pattern for me.
Honestly same. I’ve never heard someone articulate it the way Jonathan did. Another reason why I’m so grateful I found Cinema Therapy, because these guys have helped me put things into words I couldn’t have put into words before
One thing I realized about Joel at the end when he was saying "Wait" was that some people need time to process, they need to process their thoughts, their feelings, and figure out what they want to do. I mean, I feel that myself.
When a person like this meets a person like Clemintine who is just "this is what I have, this is who I am right now, it might change, but this is now", somebody who is just speaking every thought all the time, the Processor never gets a chance to process. They have to just keep storing the info the Informer is giving them until stuff just disappears because they never got a chance to process it. This whole movie is about Joel finally processing what Cleminitine said to him for all those years.
I really appreciate this point and I agree.
Me and my husband, exactly. I am super self-aware, love analyzing and dissecting, love discussing my analysis. So when I am faced with a situation or a concept, my brain highlights certain things, I reflect on what I feel about that, why I feel that way, and if my feelings are rational, and then I verbalize it. So when I'm talking to my husband, I'll present a concept/situation, then I'm wait for him to come back with his reaction, and he's like " . . . I don't have one yet." It's certainly a process to figure that out and to adjust to make room for it.
I picked up on that, too!
the issue is that most people dont want to wait unless absolutelly need to.
For me i have a speech impairment so sometimes im not understood so its like "Yea yea" just to keep going instead of actually understanding me
I sometimes cant be understood even on 10 times of repeating then even i get tired of it.
@Lycanthis99 true
I remember Clementine was crying after she erased her memory and couldn't understand why she was upset. Actually, she was experiencing grief, but the real object that she lost was not there anymore. So why she still was in pain? I thought that was a robust idea of how our emotions and brains worked in real.
this is one of my absolute favorite relationship movies. Clementine turned the whole concept of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl on its head and threw it right in the trash where it belongs, and i positively adore her for it. 💕
@OreadNYC Ironically i was a control freak by being very direct or subtle but through life experiences i matured into controlling the only person it is morally acceptable to control, myself.
@L'amoureux du Café In all fairness, you're preaching to the choir in my case because I fortunately learned that lesson many years ago...and I agree with you 100%. There have been more than a few stubborn control freaks in my family (mostly extended family whom I thankfully don't see very often) and I was at one point on track to potentially being one of them -- "people pleasers" are almost always control freaks as well but simply go about it in a gentler, more oblique , and socially acceptable way! -- but I realized that not only do I not have the power to change other people, I also don't have the prerogative no matter how good I might believe my intentions are. Other people aren't pets or playthings or possessions or prisoners. I'm aware that the primary motivation driving control freaks is unacknowledged terror of either failing to obtain something they want/need but don't have or else losing something they do have -- but that doesn't necessarily make them much easier to live with.
@OreadNYC It will sound cliché but you can't change people unless they want to change.
My best tip is that if you dislike that type of behavior/attitude then do your best to not be like them however don't waste time trying to change them or avoid them if possible.
@L'amoureux du Café At least in my experience and observation, there are quite a lot of people who never grow out of that and who all their lives use themselves as the yardstick which they use to evaluate the rest of the world with the result that they usually denigrate or dismiss anything which they don't understand which doesn't fit their paradigm of The Way Things Ought To Be.
@M G Sanz OMG, I had a childhood friend who used me for the same purpose. A very one-sided friendship, although it limped along for 40 years until she died.
I remember explaining this movie to my dad and he was shocked by the procedure that erases peoples memories. He believed that we should remember at least some parts of others we were involved with, especially if they were toxic. Otherwise if we come across them in the street one day and can’t remember that they treated us like crap we’ll get back into the toxicity. It’s also nice to have fond memories of those we have loved and lost who we had healthy relationships with because they will always be a source of comfort to us when we need it.
I wouldn't mind erasing some of the happy memories with my ex, the ones I know now were lies. Just to take the edge off so I can move on. Keep the things I need to never go back to him ever again, or put up with psychological abuse from anybody else either.
Amen
@A guy on the internet If they are dead, I will definitely take the deal because then I know there's no chance of encountering them again
@LittleMissEvel I think some people want to forget those they have lost because it’s too hard for them to handle the grief and find closure so they’d rather forget the pain
I love when Alan gets to talk about all the film-making techniques. It’s a real pleasure to see him light up about his passion, plus I invariably learn something new!
...and positively nauseating for him to say "it's so much fun to learn how I'm better than all these couples."
Let me break this down for you...
1) it's so much fun
2) to lean I'm better than xyz
That is how a narcissist thinks....a covert narcissist with a desperate need to believe they are superior to others.
As a fellow INFP who is a woman who would get a crush on any guy who showed me the slightest bit of kindness, this gave me hope. It's really hard to make that transition from wanting to be saved by someone else to telling yourself that your needs, likes, dislikes, desires, wounds, matter even without outside validation. For me, all my crushes were unrequited, and that's also really hard. It's easy to believe the lie that you're unable to fill your own void simply because you've been looking to other people your whole life to do it for you. It was a game-changer when I realized there were people in the world who didn't look to other people to meet their needs, and were healthy people emotionally, which meant I could do the same thing too, and in many ways I already was. Still working on myself step by step and have come a long way in the last five years.
Love your channel and this was the Perfect movie to add to your list of film commentary videos.
@G Thank you so much
I feel you! each sentence rang true to me. as a fellow infp, you’re so lovable. and you are loved.
I feel you! each sentence rang true to me. as a fellow infp, you’re so lovable. and you are loved.
a fellow INFP here and im so happy your working on yourself, and i also wish to have that courage to prioritize others, yes, but dont make it in a way it's instead of yourself
@Emilyn Wood I appreciate the advice and will definitely consider my options after a few months of trying out therapy.
On terms of journaling, I’ve kept a journal, though I did end up recycling back to the problem, and finding myself writing about the same things in a constant loop, instead of journaling things to fix the situation bit by bit. That and when I was consistent, it helped for a good few months.
I will see about picking it up again, now with a fresher perspective on what exactly I should do with a journal as opposed to write in it arbitrarily.
I liked the extra addition of Carrie and Rob, Joel's friends. They're clearly going through some relationship problems, and aren't the rosiest couple, but they opt to work through their problems, as opposed to running off to Lacuna to erase their memories of each other.
"Give it a rest, Rob."
"I am building a _birdhouse._ "
Well, they weren't technically "working" on their problems, they just argued lol I wish they would've showed them breaking up by the end of the movie, but doing so amicably, so that we could see the contrast between them and Clem/Joel.
They are not perfect either. Sadly the couple times we saw them they are arguing
They're such a mess. I wanted them to have more of a backstory
Apparently Nicolas Cage was supposed to play Joel but was unavailable at the time, but I'm so glad Jim Carrey did this role, really shows that his acting range isn't limited to his animated comedic performances. This, and The Truman show are my favourite performances. He and Kate Winslet were absolutely pheneomenal, great video guys
Some movies that I would LOVE to see you do in the future:
-When Harry Met Sally
-The Truman Show
-The Pursuit of Happyness
WHMS is my favorite romance movie
@Chris Kellyersonally I think too much is made of that line. I think they pulled it out and used it as a tagline for the movie right? But in the script and in the film itself, I don’t think it’s really that important and shouldn’t be treated like the movie’s thesis. Harry hangs out with the Carrie Fischer character when they’re all together, after all, as a group of friends. I think insofar as there is truth to Harry’s idea, it’s not “men and women can’t be friends”, it’s “if you’re attracted to someone, it makes your relationship with them complicated in a way that might not fit with a common definition of friendship (leaving aside the fact that many friendships are actually very complicated for various reasons).” Less pithy, but accurate.
College-age Harry expresses it the way he does because 1) heteronormativity 2) he’s kind of a slut (no shame, just facts) and projects that onto everyone.
As the movie goes on and the relationship/complicated friendship between Harry and Sally deepens, what the phrase comes to mean for them specifically is, “you can’t just be friends if you’re in actually in love.” (Importantly though, friendship is their path to falling in love.)
yesss the Truman Show is a true syndrome and Jonathan's inputs helps a lot.💖
Maybe this will be out of left field, but what about the movie Bedazzled with Brendan Frazer? I remember being really impressed with the end and how the main character had grown. Then again, I was young so maybe my memories are leading me astray
@Vera Mae I’d also like to them tackle the classics, especially “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence” (Jimmy Stewart’s character, who wins the girl that the John Wayne character covets-I always wonder whether she ended up being unhappy with her choice of man).
"I was the only person Who was actively looking for a wife in kindergarten" MAN I LAUGHED AND THEN I CRIED
This is also how I was lolllll
I wanted to say my father said he was looking for a wife at the nursery, in the hospital. Looks like he is definitely not the only one!
I related way too hard
"When people feel unconditionally loved and safe, they are actually more likely to grow and change." --- Most profound statement ever!!! But yeah, I love this movie so much and I'm thrilled to see you two talk about it.
29:55 “every relationship requires a high level of tolerance and forgiveness”
That’s the good stuff right there
YES YES YES I'VE BEEN WAAAAITING FOR THIS. Clementine and Summer from 500 days of summer are the anti manic pixie dream girls in the disguise of mpdgirls.
@Hannah yeah ruby sparks is quite underrated
People seem to hold Ramona Flowers from Scott Pilgrim vs. The World up as the quintessential Manic Pixie Dream Girl because of her whole "cool girl" look and vibe, but within the actual film (and comics!) she's basically an anti-MPDG as well. She was the MPDG for all of her Evil Exes, and she doesn't want to be that anymore. She admits she's not a good person, she treats people poorly, and she rejects Scott when he yet again just sees her as the "cool and interesting girl" who is going to make his life better. Scott has to discover his self-respect and respect for others on his own, and that's the only way he can save the day. He loses when he tries to fight for Ramona, and he only wins when he fights for _himself._ At the end of the film, he doesn't start a relationship with Ramona as a boring guy who needs her to make his life better, they start a real relationship as two flawed people who go off on a journey of self-discovery together.
Of course, this is all contained with a bunch of wacky cartoon fights, Edgar Wright comedy writing, and rad music, so the core message seems to have been lost on most people.
@Hannah Gotta look into that one! :)
I feel like there have been a ton of "anti" mpdg movies now... with varying levels of success. Ruby Sparks was an interesting one!
I like that you guys touched on how "you will never get all of your needs met from one single person" because i think this movie shows codependency pretty well - including the fact that they wanted to erase each other from their memories. It's hard to move on from that kind of relationship, and sometimes you want to just erase everything to be able to move on. I would never actually, because I've grown so much from my messy relationship, but i completely understand the urge.
I remember watching this film for the first time on a plane because I wanted something soft and easy, and ended up almost crying on a stupid ryanair flight because of how good this film is. All the characters are so well fleshed out, not only Joel and Clementine but the side characters as well. And it all feels so real, and leaves you with so many questions. It's one of my absolute favorites if not the favorite.
so funny cuz i watched movie on the plane too
I know, I loved the dynamic between Mary and Stan, and the backstory of course with Mierzwiack and her. I really wished Mary gave Stan a real chance, but she needed to heal from her trauma with the doctor. Having her memory erased backfired because she just fell in love again without having healing. Now that she has her tape back and knows what happened, she can heal it all, but it'll take time. As for Patrick, man, love to hate him haha.
Three years ago my Partner of (today) 8 years and I had an "Okay." - "Okay." moment, during an especially hard episode on both our mental health states and therefore ofc also very difficult state of our relationship. But after figuring out what our love is and what we want from the relationship and ourselves, we had an "okay". And it was the greatest okay of my life. Never been as understanding for each other as we are today.
@Joshua W what's particularly sad is that there are people who aren't satisfied with being accepted in their entirety and loved anyway. Some people find that boring, especially after many years together. Some people much prefer temporary, superficial attachments. I'll never understand that. I'll never understand hating yourself so much that you can't stand to be accepted and instead preferring to pretend to be someone else.
Wow thank you everyone for your sweet and kind words. This is such a great community ♡
Wow I love that for you!
I love those Okay moments. Congratulations!
Love is not a feeling, it is a choice you make whether someone deserves it or not. For a relationship to work both people need to choose to accept the other person for who they are and not expect them to be any different. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, but rather that improvement comes as a intrinsically motivated result of being accepted rather than being externally motivated by the need to please your partner for fear of them leaving you if you don't change.
Am I the only one who finds it so sweet how Jonathan is being so vulnerable, talking about his trauma without fear? Pure bravery to me!!
My view on Joel's "okay." is that even knowing it might lead to chaos and not work out... He still thinks it's worth it, to be with her and see where it goes. And I absolutely love that about this film. If they knew how it would end... They would still think it was worth it for the journey they get to share together
@jliller I agree with you to a large extent. I'm okay with risking a relationship that might not work out and take a chance - because it also MIGHT just as possibly work out! But I would NEVER pursue a relationship already expecting it to be temporary for good reasons other than normal human life uncertainty.
My first real crush -at fifteen - was on an slightly older co-worker at my after-school job (he was eighteen). I enjoyed my crush, but I KNEW we weren't meant to be. I loved his personality but we had different values: a long-term relationship could only have worked if one of us had changed, and obviously neither of us had the right to demand that of the other. So I never pursued it. I was so young, but I was able to say to myself 'okay, now you know what kind of personality attracts you. One day, you'll meet a guy with the same or better personality who shares your values too, and HE'LL be the right one.' I don't agree with the people who think you ACTUALLY have to get in a relationship you know won't last in order to learn from someone about what you value in a relationship, or to care about them as a person even though they're not for you. I think temporary relationships are a complete waste of time.
(Obviously it's completely different if you get into a relationship having every reason to think it will be permanent and then something happens to break it up. That's nobody's fault and couldn't have been prevented; just one of life's tragedies. Which can still be LEARNED from, but shouldn't be marketed as necessary life experience.)
@jliller I guess that's the interesting thing about love. When you're on the other side, after it broke your heart, you sometimes still know that if you could change it, you wouldn't
That's a leap I can't make. If I knew a relationship was unlikely to work, especially if I could see why it shouldn't work, I couldn't enjoy it. "This isn't a good idea" would always be nagging at me even if the relationship was seemingly healthy and otherwise happy in the present.
Ever since I became old enough to want a relationship, I have only ever wanted a serious, lifelong relationship. Anything casual or that I know is temporary has always been unappealing.
The manic pixie dream girl discussion is so relevant and Necessary! Movies still push this trope, and young men still look for it. Throughout my teens and 20’s, I took on that expectation and tried to live that role. I was a young undiagnosed Autistic woman. Trying to be the chameleon for the sake of others. A lot of MPDGs are modeled off of our stereotypes- and it rebounds off of how we understand the world in very complex ways…
OMG SAME!! I’m only ever allowed to be a fantasy.
@Maggypie Elsterlein Thank you!✨ What you shared sounds pretty similar to my life experiences too. I scored solidly high on each camouflaging/masking autism test I took, including the one my psychiatrist-therapist gave me!😆
I’m glad you’re feeling more accepted now, and accepting of yourself. So am I. Finally knowing why I was different, and how to manage it better, helped so much!
Thread Warning: My original comment was intended to introduce an open (and hopefully somewhat safe, for an online thread) discussion of the Autistic experience in connection with the Cinema Therapy movie themes. This thread has become an unsafe space to share personal experiences. One participant insists on claiming an expertise they do not have, and insisting to numerous people that they are asserting false autism diagnoses or were misdiagnosed. Whether that person is autistic or not themselves is irrelevant. It is irresponsible to be yet Another person in the world arguing to Negate the life experience of high-masking Autistic people.
If you believe yourself to be high-masking autistic, are seeking accurate diagnosis or finally got diagnosed autistic, I and many members of the autistic community believe and support you! Trained diagnosticians affirm that masking IS extremely common in undiagnosed or late-diagnosed autistic women and men- it’s how we flew under the radar so long, or struggled with being misdiagnosed (including misdiagnosed as BPD!😳) along the way. High-masking autism research is a somewhat new field, and while well-trained specialists (who are aware of *current* findings) recognize our symptoms, the DSM criteria still reflect the old model. Please don’t give up. You are or can be heard. ✨ (Just not likely here!)
*High-masking generally means that, while the autistic individual still suffers from the symptoms and consequences of autistic neurology, they have developed an ability to hide many of the more easily recognized traits at most times (ie trained eye contact, forced temporary tolerance of sensory issues, hiding stimming and meltdowns). We often have social skills and communication abilities beyond what the limited “old criteria” defined. Social difficulties, sensory issues, anxiety and/or depression, and constrained meltdown or shutdown when overwhelmed remain common, and create impairment for us. (This is based on contemporary research, not my personal experience. Type in a search engine: “high masking autism”. You will find credible sources.)
I absolutely will not further engage in any negative or negating comments in this thread, tho I wish that person well.
@Maggypie Elsterlein "masking" isn't part of the DSM 5 diagnostic criteria though. You've completely misunderstood that and are now repeating your misunderstanding as though it were fact. The criteria you're referring to is actually "Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities, or may be masked by learned strategies in later life)." At no point does that state that masking is a diagnostic criteria. What it in fact states is that early developmental period symptoms must have been present, but that they may have been masked by learned behaviour in later life. That doesn't mean that someone can show exactly zero indication of autism because they "mask so well," although that is a very common misconception amongst the self diagnosed internet "community." It means that some autistic people may have learned behaviours through their experiences that helped them hide their symptoms as adults. There is no such thing as an autistic teen that masks well, it is a myth. There are however autistic teens whose behaviour is misinterpreted as other things, often female autistic teens, who later receive an incorrect personality disorder diagnosis because their coping mechanisms happen to be more on the explosive anger side of the spectrum. Having said that, many personality disorder diagnoses are also accurate (and many are misdiagnosed as autism), but that doesn't stop those people trying to shoehorn themselves into the autism diagnostic criteria to try and escape the associated stigma of their diagnosis.
TLDR: "masking" is not a diagnostic criteria, in the DSM5 or the ICD11 for that matter. A lack of sense of self absolutely is a diagnostic criteria of BPD though. The two are often mistaken even by exceptionally well trained professionals.
Honestly, I interpreted Clementines rebuke of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope as a key reason how Joel failed in their relationship. He just assigned this woman to give some type of purpose or meaning to his life and she had her own stuff going on and she was incredibly upfront about that, he just slotted her into this role anyway and it wasn't fair. Also, all of Clementine's character arc takes place in his head. Just because he made her a manic pixie dream girl in his head, does not mean that aligns with her real character.
Speaking as a man who is extremely identical to Joel I can tell you something for matter fact which is Joel didn't trust anybody and it wasn't fair to Clementine because she trusted him even though most of the time he didn't even meet her needs or even want to understand her fundamentally.
He never opened himself up to her because he never opened himself up to anybody and she started to internalize that separation which manifested itself as a negative view of Joel as a boring or uncaring man. As we can see in the conclusion it's the exact opposite of her own perspective. Joel would give up anything for her because he loves her he was just too afraid to let her know that. He wanted her to wait because he wasn't ready to heal and to open up to her and she said, "okay", and since she finally accepted him for who he was he felt he was able to finally accept her for who she was and also replied, "okay".
This was extremely cathartic for me my dudes. Thanks for everything.
OMG I'M SO HAPPY THEY FINALLY DID THIS MOVIE😭 this is one of my favorite movies of all time. The relationship between Joel and Clementine and the progress they both went through as well as the memories you see just 🤧🤧
Also I would LOVE to see them watch Everything Everywhere All at once. That movie is added to one of my favorites and gives me the same kinda feel as this one
@Lady Reverie omg yes i watched it😆😆 so happy they did
Oh they made a video about Everything Everywhere All At Once! You should watch it!
@Trina Q exactly its the ambiguity of the ending that feels so satisfying. Maybe they try and works out, maybe it doesn't. But that what makes this movie so beautiful. Had they gave us the outcome of their final choices, it would've dulled the impact of how they got there as an audience
Preach, I liked that they made it ambiguous as to whether Joel and Clementine gave their relationship another shot, while acknowledging how it could also end badly. But they seem willing to own up to their mistakes this time, and try again.
My ex-wife showed me this and "As Good As It Gets" when we started dating, but I only understood why with the benefit of hindsight. I wish this had been a thing way back then, but maybe it'll help some other couples understand each other. You're doing the Lord's work, fellas; keep it up. Also, y'all should do "As Good As It Gets" for an episode; there's a lot of therapy-meat on them bones.
A question I have always pondered in this movie is that if we were able to remove painful and traumatic memories, wouldn’t the triggers and trauma still exist? And in that case how scary and confusing would it be not to know where those feelings come from? Or how to process?
@happy baby Great point about the symbolism of the car!
That's what this movie is saying. It's implied that Clementine went through a similar experience Joel did and was drawn to Montauk. Even though she can't remember specific events, just like Joel, just like Mary, there is still an impression left. Joel is comfortable with being alone with her, a complete stranger. Clementine feels unnerved and anxious when Patrick is regifting her gifts Joel gave her. Mary still kisses her boss, having no memory of their affair or any of the actual events that made her fall in love with him. Kind of like how in the beginning of the movie, his car has a dent in it. Erasing that memory doesn't change the fact that Clementine crashed his car when she was angry and put a dent in it.
YES. I had an abusive and neglectful childhood, and I cannot remember the sexual abuse, but I remember a childhood dream which as an adult I can decipher the meaning of which indicates I was violated. I had sex with a partner high on marijuana and began to remember something and began to panic. I'm triggered by lots of things and have always been phobic of people. Most of childhood I don't remember. I got another memory "clip" recovered when I was on shrooms one time.
What happens when a child is dependent on an abusive caregiver is that the brain creates amnesia barriers for protection. Sometimes in serious cases, dissociative identity disorder develops, with each "self" splintered off to serve a purpose for different tough situations and even to hold a traumatic memory. I believe I have this as well.
A good book about a woman with DID is "Nobody Nowhere" by the late Donna Williams, who also has a KZclip channel, though she's called herself Polly Samuel since writing her books. She is also on the autism spectrum.
I love the way the memory loss is portrayed, it’s lovely, and disturbing… which is why it’s so LOVELY!
Good point. I think memory loss can come with being in a highly stressful environment whether a romantic relationship, family or other situations where your life can be turned upside down. We block a lot of memories if they're painful, or hard to understand and to be fair our brains can only remember and store a limited number of things in a day anyway. Some people remember trauma vividly, and some block it out. I think blocking trauma is our brain's way of protecting us from constant pain, it's why remembering things in therapy and reliving stuff is so hard to do for some people and why people just quit therapy so easily sometimes. It also brings up interesting notions about memory loss, specifically about being in a stressful relationship. If you had a chance to forget a particularly difficult relationship would you do it to reduce your emotional turmoil or would you learn to live with everything that happened if you were able to recall the good times you had and what you learned in the bad times to reach personal growth?
Yes insecurity is a relationship killer everywhere, not just for couples. Love this movie and again good insights!
Really good point! In my painful personal experience, friends or relatives who are really insecure can often be pretty self-centred, weirdly...? Their expectations about what entails "real" friendship or love are often very unrealistic & extreme, and if you can't meet those expectations, they jump straight to "you don't care"? 😔 (Rather than having any empathy about potential reasons why what they demand is impossible). They often seem to have learned emotional blackmail/guilt-tripping as a coping strategy too (presumably from the same parents/caregivers who damaged their self esteem), so trying to negotiate for a continued relationship on more balanced grounds can be pretty fraught too....? Sometimes it just doesn't work & all you can do is grieve the broken link.
Huh... interestingly, my wife is the "chatter" in our relationship who tells me everything she's feeling all the time; and I am a more quiet type who only speaks when I feel I have something important to say. This doesn't cause any conflict between us. Sometimes she apologizes for talking so much, and I usually reply "well, the alternative is awkward silence, so go ahead and talk!"
There are tons of couples like that, often with the woman being the chattier one. I read somewhere that they are attracted to each other so often because she always has someone to listen to her and he is not required to do much talking....
Yes I feel that, not with my husband, I'm the chattier of the two of us, but with my brother. He likes to talk and I just like to listen.
That's because you two accept each other. She is not trying to make you talk more, and you're not trying to make her shut up. You complement each other well, which is great.
My fiancé and I (if I can even still call him that) are really struggling in our relationship right now and I sent this to him, to hopefully make him see that couples go through really difficult patches but they can make it through and find their way back to each other. I just hope we can do it without erasing each other from our memories.
I was in a rough spot with my partner and we watched this film. I really cried like a baby, and realized how wrong were my expectations of relationships. It's truly a beautiful film.
Hope you guys recover from it
Follow the advise our youtube parents just shared "sit down and talk about it... in the appartment not in the street"
I would love to see them cover Her (2013). Really want to see what they can say about Joaquin Phoenix falling in love with an IA.
One of my favourite films! I think Clementine isn't the "manic pixie dream girl " trope for many reasons but mainly she has a character beyond "quirky " it's interesting how many times I've watched that film and always interpreted the end as they don't get back together and the loop at the end is bittersweet.
This is one of those movies that gets harder to watch the older you get.
I was 16 the first time I saw this movie. I liked it but I couldn’t understand it to the full extent cause I had never experienced love like that yet.
And now almost 20 years later…I get it. This film has and will continue to always stick with me cause it’s a reminder that love comes with pain. But to always have an appreciation for the start of things with someone cause there was a time when you did love one another.
Yea this movie usually makes me feel like having another relationship is worth it even after all the awful breakups
Jim Carey is a badly underrated great actor.
Underrated? He’s universally known 😂😂😂
It's ok Jono. I fall in love with everyone who gives me the slightest bit of attention too. And I'm bisexual so I MEAN *everyone*
@Dan Cole I love myself sometimes, I suppose.
What about yourself?
@Ms12369 Relationships are a two way thing and not necessarily romantic. Friendships and work interactions etc are also relationships.
@Thurso Berwick who said anything about relationships? Practically all my crushes are one sided. It's just me pining.
@Ms12369 From experience it is dangerous to base a relationship on that. It is good if someone is kind to you, but it also lays you open to manipulation, and it should be a two way street.
I really think that if your videos were translated into more languages, it would help so many more people. More people really deserve to know this amazing channel
Yes, however i doubt another language can capture the magical brotherly love these two man have for each other, specially the puns.
We need a whole video about how comedic actors make incredible dramatic actors! Jim Carrey, Steve Carrell, Lily Tomlin, Robin Williams...and on and on
So, as someone who also falls in love with every woman who shows me the slightest kindness this starting conversation has punched me in the gut and we’re not even five minutes in, that’s a new record.
I definitely needed this, since I'm going through a hard break up myself. Thanks John and Alan for the wonderful content as always.
You have the right to suffer and grief the loss,
*hugs*
My condolences, that must be extremely hard, but I hope that you manage to get through these tough times, while remembering the positive and negative times fondly. ❤️
Would LOVE if you guys did a Family Therapy episode about Little Miss Sunshine. Hilarious movie with really interesting family dynamics across 3 generations. Such a great movie.
One of my favorite movies!! My biggest take away from it has always been, "it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" some relationships can be painful, but every one of them is an opportunity for growth.
3:40-4:48 I can identify with everything Jonathan is saying here. That is the exact journey I am on right now. Having been alone all of my life at age 28, it is hard to gain that self love as I have watched everyone around me fall in and out of love more than once and sometimes it seems I'm destined to remain alone. But I'll keep working on it by myself and hopefully soon with the help of a therapist as well (currently looking for one).
@L'amoureux du Café felt oddly emotional reading this.
All you can do is work on yourself. I'm 43 and just ended what was otherwise my healthiest relationship yet over us both realising there was a key area where we don't mesh, that long term will lead to a power imbalance and resentment. So, single again, hurting real bad, but also happy because I've finally learnt to have the conversations and reach that acceptance the guys are talking about. Please do the work, it's worth it.
I took way longer to learn to love myself. I am 48, been married 27 years, but now I am understanding that we are not a fit for each other. 😒 So hard, though, to just walk away.
@Taleneki good luck fellow human!
Good luck in that journey. I learned to love myself in my loneliness many years ago the problem was that i was not aware of the people around me rooting for me and extending their hands to help/support me (I just needed to extend it back to them).
Being alone, from what i've learned, is a conscious choice and all you need is to do is to allow yourself to be with others, invest time, share experiences, create new experiences and most importantly build bridges.
Charlie Kaufman's one of the most brilliant writers of our time. Glad his work has really resonated with the wider audiences
I remember watching this with my father when it came out on DVD and he said something I'll always remember: the person Joel was at the beginning of the movie wouldn't have gone after Clementine, and the person Clementine was at the beginning of the film wouldn't have come back.
Yes! I adore this film. Thank you for covering it. It’s wonderful to explore the idea of erasing unwanted memories - as painful as they may be, they are our foundation and a source of growth 💙
…And quite frankly it’d be doomed to miserable failure if you could even try… Yup.
It’s funny; with modern science & pharmacology, we as humans do currently possess the chemicals & technology to make ourselves feel any way we desire at any time we so choose…
…Yet we still lack the responsibility to acknowledge & allow ourselves to feel how we should (as opposed to how we want). It’s impossible to reconcile that choosing to not help yourself, because it’s more important to take the bad with the good, isn’t selling yourself out… Yet just because you can take someone’s pain away, even your own, it doesn’t mean you automatically should.
Precisely, even though it might be difficult to reminisce on an old relationship, it's worth remembering as opposed to forgetting that it ever happened.
This is a very relatable episode for this point in my life. Currently in a "situationship" that is reminiscent of this pair. I gain something from every episode ya'll do, relatable to me or not. But this one was very insightful and helpful. Thank you guys for all you do.
You're so welcome. Thanks for watching!
Your opening monologue is great, I just can't always agree with that. Narcissists will use your unconditional love as a tool to never grow or change and keep you devoted to them. Different identity disorders need different love styles.
True. What is the unintended gift from the narcissist is actually the gift from ourselves, the gift of exceptional growth and wisdom after we leave them. I was raised by one, so I have more healing to go, but thankful for the ways it's deepened my soul.
I love this too. Jim Carrey can do drama extremely well and Kate Winslet is a great actress. I want to watch this masterpiece again now
Honestly, something that has really resonated with me over the past month is that idea of "You can't get all your social needs from just one person."
In my case, it's not because that person doesn't exist, because she does, and I love her madly, and I recognize I'm extremely lucky to have found someone that I really can click with in every way to some degree-
But to sort of open up a bit about my situation, in case anyone else can learn from it or empathize, I'm in a long distance relationship with a wonderful person, and have been for almost 2 years now, and we've finally gotten to a point where we're ready to move in together to close that physical distance, but something happened on her end to where I can't talk to her until I can reach her (not to get too into it but she has a toxic family that she's also trying to get out of), so for close to a month, and soon to be over it, we've had no contact, I can't speak to what she's going through because I know it must be much worse than what I am, but it made me realize, I HAVE depended on her for basically all my interpersonal needs, and she's depended on me, and it's opened my eyes to the fact that, one way or another, while this will (hopefully) be temporary, there WILL be a day, hopefully far into the future but I know we can't really control, where more than likely, one of us will pass away, and the other will have to live with that, and I honestly hope that I'm the one who grieves because I don't wish that on her, so I've come to realize, friendship is very important, as is having a wide variety of good people around you that you can build healthy relationships with, because no one lives forever, no matter how much we want them to, and that's why it's important to have as good of relationships as you can possibly develop, so that when the storm comes, even in the worst case scenario, you won't go down with the ship alone.
I'm very grateful for this channel and this community, and even if this is just me talking to myself, that's okay, but if there's someone out there listening, that's even better, and I hope you have a good life with good people, and that you can develop a practice to be grateful for that, and that if you're not, you can build yourself to a situation where you can start, and know that, even if you may not be fortunate in this moment to have someone right next to you, you can still love yourself, and find people who love you too, we're all out here, and we're all human, you just may need to take a few leaps to find us. Have a good day.
👍
Hey there, I've also been in a long distance relationship for 1,5 years before my partner moved in with me. We used to skype almost daily and the first and last thing of our days was sending each other a "good morning" and "good night" message.
So, here's the thing: I felt so good to finally be around each other more and I for example was sooo excited when he came home from work and wanted to talk and to do stuff with him like play a game or watch a movie while he still needed to recover from work... felt a bit like a rejection for me until we talked about it.
Also, there'll be so many things that get more "normal" when you see each other every day and I think it's good to focus on a few dear habits that you don't want to lose over time.
Finally: yes, you'll need other friends to spend time with and even more importantly she'll also have to make friends once she moves over. It's cool to have a big circle of common friends, but you also need to give her room to find her own allies. Neither of you should depend on the other.
My two cents after living together for 5 years now 😀
One half of my family reach out to others, are hurt, and try again while supporting each other. The other half try once or twice, keep to themselves, and are faced with near immediate disaster when one of the very few people they interact with, pass on or move on.
I try to find a balance, but I feel you. It's hard to remember to keep up with friends, once in a relationship with a great match. A wise friend I've known for ages always reminded me of this; it's great to be excited about new friends and crushes, but don't make that person your whole world and forget the others.
I hope she'll be okay, and can get out of that. I hope living together will work out fine, and that you'll give each other time and space to adjust. Best of luck!
I've always wondered what Clem confronted when her memories of Joel were being erased. I assume she fought just as hard to keep those memories of him (I assume everyone did, like the woman who wanted to forget her dog who died), but I wonder what her projection of him would have told her. How would those conversations play out in her mind that allowed her subconscious growth?
Cinema therapy has been hitting me back to back with my most favourite movies and show ? I appreciate this channel so much thank you to everyone who works on these videos 🎅🏿
I love this movie, I was so depressed over a break up watching this yet felt healed after watching this. It teaches that love whether good or bad teaches us important lessons and is worth the risk
I'm the talkative one in the relationship, my husband is largely silent. My mom has given me grief for answering questions directed at my husband, but she doesn't know him like I do. I can tell when he doesn't want to answer her question, and I'm redirecting her unwanted attention back on me. Which my husband is always thankful for.
I think it's okay as long as she is protecting or defending your interest in someway. Sometimes others who love you differently are seeing and investigating things for you. If he is just uncomfortable and not being abused in some way, it's necessary sometimes to communicate through that. And you may be protecting him from the growth that you and your family may provide. Sometimes not though. Lol
It's funny, I used to do that for my little brother. My mother would always get mad at me for it but he absolutely did not want her attention.
This doesn’t really have anything to do with the movie, but I just wanted to thank you guys so much for making this channel. I love watching your videos, they’re so much fun to watch and I love learning more about the filmmaking of movies that I love. The way that you guys talk about therapy, mental health struggles, psychological issues, etc. has been really helpful for me and coming to terms with my own issues and actually helped me to decide to start doing therapy. So thank you all so much to you and your wonderful team, wishing you all the best in the world and all the love! 💕💕💕
I can relate so much to Jonathan falling in love with every woman who showed him the least bit of attention.
I’ve rarely regretted it, but my last ex made me think “damn…stuff happened that I shouldn’t have accepted, but I got so caught up in wanting to be with them that I forgot to keep up my own standards.” That’s when I realised how damaging it can be to be a hopeless romantic.
Standards are important, people. Even when you think that having crushes all the time hasn’t been a problem, you deserve someone with the best personality (for you).
Also, seeing breaking up as an option is important too. If you don’t feel like you ever could, you’re not ready to be in a relationship at all.
Edit: wow…I wrote that when they mentioned it, but now Jonathan is mentioning him needing to love himself first. Oh…my god. This is exactly what I need. In fact, it’s what I’ve been working on since the relationship, but I’ve never thought of it so clearly. Yes, my vague direction has just become so much clearer. I guess that’s where I’m going next. I’m not there yet. Family trauma that isn’t even done traumatising me is kinda slowing my growth, but I’m going to get there wether my toxic family likes it or not. I’m important enough to prioritise that. See! I’m already growing further.
My favourite moment with my husband was when he accurately identified how I was feeling. Growing up, I was always told "this is how you feel" and it was always wrong. But my partner knows me like my family never has.
I can relate way too much to "I get bored of you and then I feel trapped, because that's what happens to me". Overall the couple reminds me of me and my boyfriend a little bit.
This was my boyfriends movie before we met, and it has slowly become my favorite movie over the past few years. It’s weird because we are very much similar reflections of Joel and Clementine. Right down to the “no jokes about my name” 😂
Ohhh, wish you could also do The Before Trilogy 😊
I love it! 'Before Sunset' is my favorite. I once watched it twice in a row. There is so much between the lines, in their expressions, in what they talk (or lie) about... and I guess the idealization of 'the one that got away' is something most people can relate to.
I second that suggestion! I remember seeing the first one and being amazed at how much more compelling a movie romance could be without all the overdone tropes and distractions of most romantic movies. Just two strangers getting to know eachother and feeling the spark... and ofc the sequels explore other aspects of relationships in a great way!
Jonathan is such a role model for me... I'm 17, a senior in high school and I've been going through the exact things he had gone through for as long as I can remember (I remember being in kindergarten and idealizing a perfect marriage lol) It makes me emotional seeing someone who had gone through the same things as I do, successfully. I mean... it's a rare state for a person to be in: having *too* good models to observe love that it's a problem.I always felt lonely, as if I was the only one who had this problem. I feel like everyone around me is the exact opposite of me, sometimes I get the impression that they don't even like being valued, I think they see being valued as some sort of responsibility that they have to deal with.
I want to value, I want to get valued, because I want to get valued I value, but I don't have my value back. People come and go but the cycle always remains the same. I can't even express how alienated I feel. Knowing that someone like Jonathan exists is such a relief for me... I'm not an alien and now I have a path to improve myself. I have to practice self love, I have to be self sufficient with my value system before getting other people involved.
Fascinating to consider how lovers gravitated back towards each other after memories were erased. Kirsten Dunst's character understood that it was best not to interfere with the inevitable pull.
You are so right about the “inevitable pull”. I’ve thought and felt the same thing myself :)
This is a fantastic analysis of my favorite film! ❤Please PLEASE do 500 days of Summer!
I need an analysis of 500 days of Summer too! It would be so interesting
@27:49 "Love is a choice." Perfectly said!
One of my all-time favorites. So glad you guys are covering it
I would love to see your takes on Stranger than Fiction. Has a lot of interpersonal discussion about self. It's similiar to Eternal Sunshine in that it's a comedic actor that took on a drama role and blew it out of the water.
Jenna is on point with the editing this episode, love to see a Strong Bad emails reference
Oh wow, that acting is so good. I’ve not seen this movie (but now plan to!) but the ending scene, of acceptance by both and Kate‘s/Clementine’s sob just got me. The relief that they will both try again. So good!!
I think of this movie as a sort of Rorschach test for how one views romantic relationships. To the more optimistic, Clementine and Joel need to not just forget about their problems so they can grow together. To the pessimistic, they need to not forget so they can stay the heck away from each other.
It is funny how my thoughts have changed as I have aged on that spectrum.
13:52 was an unexpected surprise in this episode and I LOVED this entire segment
Since you're also covering series now with Arcane, please talk about Avatar: The Last Airbender sometime. Particularly about Zuko.
And Azula
4:18 Jonathan talking about the need for acceptance made me tear up, because that's my life right now..
I saw Eternal Sunshine in the theaters for my birthday one year and I definitely was not in the right space, either emotionally or mentally otherwise, to appreciate it at the time. Immediately afterwards, I snuck into Kill Bill: Part 2 even though I hadn't yet seen Part 1 before it and I enjoyed the heck out of it.
I haven't watched this movie in years and forgot how amazing it is! The final scene of "Okay" made me suddenly burst into tears! It's so well acted, written, and filmed and has such a lovely story of growth in a relationship. I really appreciated the move making insights that I never noticed before lile the library books and lighting changes. SO COOL!
This is one of my favorite movies of all time. Guys thank you and your team for putting in the work to cover this one.
Can I just say... the subtitles are exquisite, like there's punctuation, and the little dashes that make it seem like you're reading a play. Thank you.
“Love is a choice”
Please, may someone hand a nobel prize to this man?
Your movies lately are on point!! For the last month you've been so on fire that I audibly squeal at the sight of every new post. So many good ones I can't wait to get to. This and Marriage story being great examples!
That’s great to hear! Thanks for watching! 😊
I watched this movie first time in my 20s, and it hit me so hard like nothing else. Made me cry, and 15 years later, i still find it painful to watch.
One of my favorite movies ever.
Thanks for doing an episode on it, all the best to you guys!
Thank you for finally discussing this hidden gem of a film. I watched it in the theater and was the only person in the audience who laughed at any of it. Most importantly, the movie motivated me to seek professional help after a long break from treatment.
Jonathan, I appreciate you sharing your backstory about needing acceptance, and struggling with feeling lovable each time you got dumped. That’s been my adult life to a T. No matter how hard I tried, I always got dumped, and I kept thinking that that had to be because there was something horrible about me that drove people away.
The way Alan explains the movie and the elements of it and how Jono explains the movie events, its meaning and its application of it on the movie and in life is how I am when I watch films. I wish I could meet someone that shares the same movie interest in films with me.
God, I love this movie so much. It always gives me all the feels. When Joel goes and says ok at the end, man that gets me. When you think about it, it's such a romantic line. Clem lays out all of the problems that they'll face if they try to be together, and Joel just says ok.
When he said he wanted to be married in kindergarden, I felt that 😂
Eternal Sunshine is why I love indie films over standard Hollywood crap nowadays. It's such a beautiful and intimate glimpse into the relationship of these two, topped off by an interesting vibe reminiscent of social science fiction. It's far more captivating as a character study into romantic love. It's probably one of Jim Carrey's best films. I couldn't think of any other 2 amazing actors to bring this great flick to life.
the hbo series scenes from a marriage with oscar isaac and jessica chastain is an incredible piece of relationship art that i think both of you would love if you haven’t already seen it
Eternal sunshine has my favorite ending of any movie.
"Okay 🤷♂️"
"okay 🙂"
This is literally my all time favorite movie. I am so glad you guys covered it
Thinking back, I always have grieved my relationships in reverse. Angry and resentful. Then looking back how it got so bad. Eventually while I'm used to being single for awhile, I look back and remember the first date, fondly. I'm friends with a few exes now and we have a deep respect and appreciation for each other. I just hope I can maintain that perspective while in a relationship.
Aw. Haven't seen this movie but looks adorable and relatable for sure...seeing as you included a clip of it, for suggestions, I'd love to see you guys do an episode on "500 days of Summer" (loved that movie so much🥰) also "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" the cinematography was gorgeous and the concept of maladapted daydreaming and introversion was also very relatable for me...as always, you guys rock!🤘🤗😋
Y'all should definitely do Wristcutters: A Love Story! Absolutely love these breakdowns :)
Was that a freaking Homestar Runner (Strong Bad) tie-in joke?! +100 points!!
I also super-relate to the "Why do I fall in love with every woman I see who shows me the least bit of attention" line.
"I have my movie wife!" "Movie Spouse."
Love that he's fine being married but draws the line at being a wife.